Just asked this on another part of this forum

This is a discussion on Just asked this on another part of this forum within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I just asked this question under the forum re when can we draw guns and use them etc but I wanted to know specifically what ...

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Just asked this on another part of this forum

    I just asked this question under the forum re when can we draw guns and use them etc but I wanted to know specifically what police officers are taught in the academy about this hypothetical situation. If this belongs strictly on the other forum, so be it, but as it concerns law enforcement I thought I would put it here also, if that is okay.
    Three guys approach an officer on a detail, looking for trouble, drunk or sober, they are unarmed. They make contact, maybe push or shove the officer. I would think that the officer should first call for assistance, then deal with the three people. But when can he and should be draw his weapon and when can he use it. These three men are unarmed, but they may be after his gun and once he relinquishes that, he may be killed. I have always meant to ask my police officer friends about this in the courthouse where I spend most of my time, but we always end up talking about mutual cases and I forget to run this scenario by them. What would you do and why and what does the academy teach about this? It is clear when the subjects have clubs or bats or knives etc but what about when they are unarmed but are still making physical contact with this officer, who is by himself, and he has already called for backup. The most he can do is to try to contain and defuse what is going on but what else can he do and WHEN? Thanks in advance.

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    On the street its a fight for survival. The officer needs to assess and react to the specific situation. Sometimes less than lethal options are able to be deployed, sometimes not. 3 on 1 and someone grappling is long odds.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I agree. He can try the pepper spray but against three? I know he is not expected to just give in to these three assailants but it is not clear cut either, just when and how and what he is supposed to do. I am interested in what the academies say about this scenario, which I am sure has happened on occasion.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    1) It doesn't get to "they make contact." They get OC and baton before it gets there.

    2) If the officer feels he/she will be disarmed and in danger of life and limb, yes, someone may get shot.

    Why are you/why is the officer getting surrounded? MOVE.

    I believe MD Tactical has Southnarc's Practical Unarmed Combat DVD, which(IIRC) incorporates some of his managing unknown contacts curricula. Well worth the change. As in checkers and chess, if the other guy out manuvers you, you've lost.

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    So the officer preempts any would-be attack and goes pro-active. That is the safest thing to do when he or she sees it coming, instead of waiting to see what develops. Thanks. I wonder if all academies teach it the same basic way.

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I was talking to a friend of mine on the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and he told me that years ago, on occasion, if he stopped a car on the interstate and it had five or six guys in it, maybe a minivan full of bad looking folks, he would not try to delve into details too much if there was not a clear-cut serious violation going on, as he is miles from backup and has his, in those days, .357 revolver. Not that he was afraid, just that he thought the officer in that particular situation who is not seeing anything illegal besides the speeding, should not get everyone out of the van or car and begin searching for illegal activities because it just was not worth the danger involved, where speeding was the only obvious wrongdoing.

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    Member Array Spenser's Avatar
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    I always figured that, if I was a LEO, I'd get much more satisfaction out of beating them to a pulp with my baton then simply shooting them if they physically attacked me.
    Better to die quick, fighting on your feet;
    Than to live forever, begging on your knees.

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I agree with you. This hypothetical of mine---I am sure it has actually happened on occasion, so it is not quite as far fetched as some might think it to be. But I always wondered how LEOs would handle it and also how they are trained to handle it. It sounds simple but in reality I don't think the solution is a textbook one.

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    Member Array CelticWarrior13's Avatar
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    I always figured that, if I was a LEO, I'd get much more satisfaction out of beating them to a pulp with my baton then simply shooting them if they physically attacked me.
    You'd think that, but sometimes it's just not that easy - sometimes they kick your butt!

    I am sure it has actually happened on occasion, so it is not quite as far fetched as some might think it to be. But I always wondered how LEOs would handle it and also how they are trained to handle it. It sounds simple but in reality I don't think the solution is a textbook one.
    It has...on more than one occassion. The most striking that you've probably seen on video is that of the Texas Constable that stopped 3 men in a vehicle...they all exited as he had one of them opening the trunk to examine it for drugs. They jumped him (there were some indications that it was going to happen that he didn't pick up on but that doesn't matter now) and took his gun, fatally shooting him in the process. There was the female officer who stopped the man with his daughter in the car with him...he savagely beat her and crushed her face (while his daughter watched) leaving her for dead (she survived)...

    There have been other cases as well - If you feel you're going to be overpowered, whether by one or by 10 then you can use whatever force deemed appropriate to protect yourself and your weapon. OC spray and Tasers don't always work.

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I did see that video of the Texas LEO ad he was a big guy. But there were several of "them". They said that they use that video in academy training to show just what does occur on the streets and highways.

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    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    "I wanted to know specifically what police officers are taught in the academy about this hypothetical situation. "

    They'll be provided with the means of identifying such threats and dealing with them. "Dealing with them encompassed mainly options besides going to guns, though that is on the table."

    A generic answer, I realize, but you scenario is what it is, one a well trained person should be able to handle without going straight to guns. But... as mentioned, it will come down to the totality of the circumstances as interpreted by the officer on scene, and viewed through the prism of what another reasonable officer would do in a similar circumstance.

    That's clearer mud than the totality of circumstances as interpreted by the person on scene, and viewed through the prism of what another reasonable person would do.
    God, country, family.

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Thank you.

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    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    That said, arguably the most valuable training equips officers to recognize threats in time to do something about them; something neither officers in the examples provided did. The ques where there, they just didn't pick up on them, unfortunately.

    Its tough out there. You have to be able to see tough coming and be either smarter or tougher, and preferably both.
    God, country, family.

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    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Let me just say here that there is no higher honor than being a police officer. I have felt like that ever since I can remember. All my best friends are Boston PD officers, and fellow attorneys are just people I work with, not social friends at all. Thanks for your responses to my post re what an officer would/should do.

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    Member Array CelticWarrior13's Avatar
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    I did see that video of the Texas LEO ad he was a big guy. But there were several of "them". They said that they use that video in academy training to show just what does occur on the streets and highways.
    There were 3 of them...and yes that video serves as a training video for LEO's ( both at the academy level and in-service...if nothing else hopefully we can learn from the tragic loss of officers and try to prevent it from happening again) There are numerous "clues" indicating that an attack is imminent (without giving them all away I'll point out to one of the most glaring is that the attacker took off his cowboy hat and set it on the vehicle, why? To protect it...You'll typically see that behavior in one preparing for a fight - amongst many other "primping" indicators that they displayed)

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