Homeland Security Check Point - Page 4

Homeland Security Check Point

This is a discussion on Homeland Security Check Point within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bae The Border Patrol should, and does, have the authority to investigate throughout the entire territory of the US. It does bring ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array GettingOld2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    The Border Patrol should, and does, have the authority to investigate throughout the entire territory of the US.
    It does bring up the question of being able to recognize a legitimate stop. City, County, State Police I can easily recognize. FBI I can recognize, I think. But others, I'm not so sure about. Border Patrol I normally never encounter. They look rather like Park Rangers in the video. Do I stop for Park Rangers outside of a park? How about Department of Energy? Department of Education? Anyone with a shiny badge? Future Farmers of America?

    Freeze ... PTA!

    I just don't know.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I think the invasion of our country by tens of millions of illegal law breakers is a huge emergency. Not only are they a threat to national security but they are ruining the economy, stealing jobs from Americans, causing a huge upsurge in violent crime and monopolizing our health care system as we are required to treat them in emergency rooms for free (or should I say on the backs of hard working Americans.)

    If we will not build the fence then at least we should be able to find them and deport them using reasonable methods like checkpoints in areas THAT WE KNOW they use for drug smuggling and people smuggling.

    If this isn't an emergency then I challenge anyone to articulate what an emergency looks like to them.
    An emergency is something like locking down an entire area with a perimeter and stopping every car leaving, like in the case of the DC sniper a few years ago, or the North Hollywood bank robbery. While illegal immigration is a large problem, I don't think it's that kind of emergency. A serious problem, to be sure, but one that I think is more effectively addressed with options other than these checkpoints.

    If the federal government was serious about curbing illegal immigration, they would seriously enforce the laws that prohibit employers from hiring illegals. They would relentlessly prosecute fraudulent use of Social Security numbers. They would raid businesses (based on probable cause, or course) and deport illegals. They would beef up security ON the border, not set up a worthless checkpoint 50 miles inland where a goof with a video camera can refuse to answer questions and drive off without any investigation being done. Of what use is such a checkpoint, other than a "feel good" measure that makes it seem like the feds are doing their jobs while they abdicate their true responsibility to halt illegals?

    Does anyone honestly believe that smugglers don't know where these checkpoints are and don't take steps to avoid them? Does anyone seriously think that stopping innocent motorists along the highway without suspicion is the best way to find illegals? Surely no one is this naive.

    Funny how you disdain DUI checkpoints as an infringement of your rights, but don't mind these immigration checkpoints. I'd venture to say that, despite the high dollar cost of illegals (which is somewhat offset by the payroll and sales taxes they pay, despite their illegal status), I'd bet DUI kills more of our citizens each year than illegal immigrants. I guess the thousands of citizens being killed on the roads each year by DUI don't constitute an emergency, eh?

    I see that you also posted that you would defend virtually any measure to defend against the "destruction of our culture." Our culture? Hmmm. Interesting comment.

    The checkpoints might indeed be legal, despite being borderline useless. However, I maintain that unless there is a real, immediate emergency (not hyperventilation and hyperbole), stopping people without suspicion of a violation of a law or ordinance is wrong, period.
    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metro 40 View Post
    An emergency is something like locking down an entire area with a perimeter and stopping every car leaving, like in the case of the DC sniper a few years ago, or the North Hollywood bank robbery. While illegal immigration is a large problem, I don't think it's that kind of emergency. A serious problem, to be sure, but one that I think is more effectively addressed with options other than these checkpoints.
    So you think two individuals in a populous of millions is an emergency but the invasion amounting to over 20% of the population of the southwest is just a problem.

    If the federal government was serious about curbing illegal immigration, they would seriously enforce the laws that prohibit employers from hiring illegals. They would relentlessly prosecute fraudulent use of Social Security numbers. They would raid businesses (based on probable cause, or course) and deport illegals. They would beef up security ON the border, not set up a worthless checkpoint 50 miles inland where a goof with a video camera can refuse to answer questions and drive off without any investigation being done. Of what use is such a checkpoint, other than a "feel good" measure that makes it seem like the feds are doing their jobs while they abdicate their true responsibility to halt illegals?
    I absolutely agree with the measure you wrote. Clearly, our government is not serious in controlling the invasion. In fact,they are encouraging it. That is why Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter were given short shrift in the presidential primaries.

    But certainly, the checkpoints are not just a feel good measure because they have been successful at curbing human smuggling.

    Does anyone honestly believe that smugglers don't know where these checkpoints are and don't take steps to avoid them?
    I take it you are unfamiliar with the serious problems in Arizona regarding drug smugglers. Just last month the Border Patrol confiscated millions of dollars and tons of marijuana. Much of this was precisely because of checkpoints.

    Does anyone seriously think that stopping innocent motorists along the highway without suspicion is the best way to find illegals? Surely no one is this naive.
    Of course, stopping innocent motorists does not find illegals. Stopping illegals at the checkpoints is 100% certain of finding illegals.

    Funny how you disdain DUI checkpoints as an infringement of your rights, but don't mind these immigration checkpoints.
    The difference is reasonable suspicion versus arbitrary harrassment. A DUI checkpoint is set up to perform an arbitrary search on a citizen in violation of Fourth Amendment rights. An immigration checkpoint is an identity checkpoint, not a violation of rights at all.

    I'd venture to say that, despite the high dollar cost of illegals (which is somewhat offset by the payroll and sales taxes they pay, despite their illegal status), I'd bet DUI kills more of our citizens each year than illegal immigrants. I guess the thousands of citizens being killed on the roads each year by DUI don't constitute an emergency, eh?
    Are you aware that many drunk drivers are illegals? The issue, of course, is different. Illegals do not pay payroll taxes (unless they have stolen a SS number, yet another crime.)

    I see that you also posted that you would defend virtually any measure to defend against the "destruction of our culture." Our culture? Hmmm. Interesting comment.
    Do you find defending our culture problematic? Or do you think we are so 'diverse' as to have already sacrificed the American culture? At one time, LEGAL immigrants assimilating into American culture. They learned our language, they became citizens, they pledged allegiance to our flag. Now, ILLEGAL law breakers are destroying the economy, trashing the landscape with their garbage, ruining pubic schools, causing increased violence, and preventing necessary health care to Americans. In many areas of major cities English is not spoken at all. Ballots in every language under the sun so illegals can vote for those that will give them something for nothing. All in the name of political correctness.

    We need to estabish more checkpoints, allow the Minutemen the ability to detain illegals and we need to prevent groups from aiding the illegals with water stations and maps. Since when has aiding and abetting criminals been tolerated in the United States?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GettingOld2 View Post
    It does bring up the question of being able to recognize a legitimate stop. City, County, State Police I can easily recognize. FBI I can recognize, I think. But others, I'm not so sure about. Border Patrol I normally never encounter. They look rather like Park Rangers in the video. Do I stop for Park Rangers outside of a park? How about Department of Energy? Department of Education? Anyone with a shiny badge? Future Farmers of America?

    Freeze ... PTA!

    I just don't know.
    I don't know about VA (lots of questions out of VA though)....however, in FLA....you best STOP for anyone in a State, County or City vehicle in a law enforcement uniform...our game and fish guys have "State Law Enforcement" clearly marked on the trucks...they do speed enforcement in certain areas...respond in the event of disasters like hurricanes...

    D.O.E.....they're federal. If you've been near or are on the premisies of an electrical or gas facility...you might want to consider listening to them...(it's post 9/11)...I understand some D.O.E. folks are armed pretty well.......

    I've only been on the site a short while but I'm seeing a lot of distrust in our nation posted here....it's sad. I've travelled to some pretty bad off 3rd world countries in the past three years....places where the governments flat out lie to people....no continuity in electrical or water services....and darn sure no "FEMA" when the homes are devastated.....we got it pretty good...not perfect...but still a great place to be blessed by being a citizen.

    One other great thing about the U.S.A....if you don't like it here or trust the government (I don't fully trust any government) here, you're FREE to leave! (Unlike Cuba and a few other countries)...

  5. #50
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    Three different points being confused.

    My opinion on those three point in reverse order -- and everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is one of the things that make this a Great country.


    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangerboogie View Post
    IMOP the guy is just a jerk, not a patriot.
    IMHO, he is a JERK A BIG JERK
    That being true, it has no bearing on his, yours or my rights -- IMHO.

    9/11, the invasion of our country by tens of millions of illegal law breakers, the drug problems, etc are all being used to strip us of our fundamental rights. We can be lulled into giving up those liberties by the mindset of "I'm not quilty, so I have nothing to be afraid of" or the mindset of "If they have nothing to hide why do they object to being searched" etc

    Now, if she shows up at my door to search my house then we have an altogether different problem.
    Why is the involuntary search of your house more of a "problem" than an involuntary search of your car, or your person, or a "Papers Please!!!" national ID system, etc is or would be?

    I don't see it as an invasion of my rights to stop and render aid to a federal agent trying to catch illegals.
    My volunteering to stop and render aid to a federal agent or any LEO is no invasion of my rights -- it is consensual. I can consent to all kinds of searches, etc. which the authorities have no "authority" to demand w/o my consent. What I volunteer to do has no bearing on what you are required to do. And what you volunteer to do, or consent to have done to you, has no bearing on what can be demanded of me -- or that BIG JERK, for that matter.

    If the LEO's stop would not stand up in court under the "Terry Stop" rules , then the LEO should not be able to demand ID, IMHO.
    Last edited by DaveH; May 11th, 2008 at 08:05 PM. Reason: typo
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  6. #51
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    Dang if I see the distinction

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post

    The difference is reasonable suspicion versus arbitrary harrassment. A DUI checkpoint is set up to perform an arbitrary search on a citizen in violation of Fourth Amendment rights. An immigration checkpoint is an identity checkpoint, not a violation of rights at all.
    Let's see. What is the distinction? In both situations the motorist is going about his business, minding his own business, but compelled to stop for the checkpoint.

    In both places, most people are quickly waived through with nothing particularly intrusive being done.

    Well, at the DUI you can be asked for your license; but you claim at the CBP checkpoints papers aren't needed. At least that is what the guy from Washington wrote.

    O.K. SO WHAT GOOD IS THE DANG CHECKPOINT?

    BP AGENT: Are you a citizen?

    Juan the illegal: Si!

    BP AGENT: Next.

    Look, it might actually make sense to run the dogs up and down the side of the big rigs to make sure there aren't people being smuggled inside. And it might make sense to run the dogs past the trucks to sniff out contraband.

    It makes no sense to stop motorists if you aren't allowed to ask for papers, which is apparently the rule--thank goodness.
    Because, if they were allowed to ask for papers we would all have to carry "internal passports" 24/7.

    I gather SD has no problem with that. We disagree. I have a big problem with that.

    When I was growing up in the 1950s I would routinely read magazine stories about the totalitarian regimes in Europe, present and past, and their penchant for "papers." Even France, supposedly a free country, had such a goofy bureaucracy that I once read the guys had to carry handbags full of "papers."

    I don't want to go there. It isn't necessary, and it is destructive of personal freedom.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array flagflyfish's Avatar
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    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
    and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
    service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
    love and thanks of man and woman."

    -- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)

  8. #53
    bae
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It makes no fri...n sense to stop motorists if you aren't allowed to ask for papers, which is apparently the rule--thank goodness.
    The Border Patrol agents ask you one or more questions at the checkpoint. They aren't so much concerned with the actual answers, but rather with *how* you respond. They evaluate your body language, your appearance, details concerning your vehicle, your checkpoint-crossing history, and so on. Some set of their observations may be construed as articulable facts supporting a level of suspicion to further investigate and possibly to arrest, depending on the totality of the circumstances at hand.

    They don't just ask you "Hello sir, are you an American", and wave you through...

    In the last two months, at the rather small checkpoint where I live, they have hauled in almost 100 illegals (oh, I'm sorry, "undocumented guest workers who haven't done anything wrong but offer to clean our homes and weed our gardens for low low low wages...") for arrest, and nabbed a handful people on outstanding warrants, including one Very Bad Person. So, from objective evidence, the checkpoint is doing *something* useful.

    It also has our local illegal immigrant community in a bit of a tizzy - they are afraid to attend school, show up for medical treatment, use other county services, or head to the mainland for supplies.

  9. #54
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Let's see. What is the distinction? In both situations the motorist is going about his business, minding his own business, but compelled to stop for the checkpoint.

    In both places, most people are quickly waived through with nothing particularly intrusive being done.

    Well, at the DUI you can be asked for your license; but you claim at the CBP checkpoints papers aren't needed. At least that is what the guy from Washington wrote.
    You are required to have a drivers license. That should be all that is required but, unfortunately, some states provide drivers licenses to illegal invaders. Our country is being invaded by foreigners, in large numbers, and we should take steps to determine who is, and who is not, a US citizen. Whether it is at a hospital, a bank, an employer or at a checkpoint makes little difference. I can't imagine you have a problem with providing identification to open a bank account or supplying a valid social security card for a job.

    O.K. SO WHAT GOOD IS THE DANG CHECKPOINT?
    Checkpoints have stopped human smuggling and checkpoints have stopped a large influx of drugs. They also serve as a deterrent. As a side benefit, it helps stop terrrosim.

    Look, it might actually make sense to run the dogs up and down the side of the big rigs to make sure there aren't people being smuggled inside. And it might make sense to run the dogs past the trucks to sniff out contraband.
    Sounds good to me!

    It makes no sense to stop motorists if you aren't allowed to ask for papers, which is apparently the rule--thank goodness.
    They can ask. If you choose to obstruct then they can detain you based on reasonable suspicion (I would be suspicious if you failed to show a drivers license.) As BAE correctly noted, they can detain you until they resolve the situation.

    Because, if they were allowed to ask for papers we would all have to carry "internal passports" 24/7.
    Do you carry your CCW permit? Your drivers license? Your assport if you leave the country? Can you describe the hardship of producing that identification?

    I gather SD has no problem with that. We disagree. I have a big problem with that.
    That makes for a good debate!

    When I was growing up in the 1950s I would routinely read magazine stories about the totalitarian regimes in Europe, present and past, and their penchant for "papers." Even France, supposedly a free country, had such a goofy bureaucracy that I once read the guys had to carry handbags full of "papers."

    I don't want to go there. It isn't necessary, and it is destructive of personal freedom.
    There was not a similar illegal invasion in the '50s nor was there a war on terror.

  10. #55
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    I think we are talking about two different stops

    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    The Border Patrol agents ask you one or more questions at the checkpoint. They aren't so much concerned with the actual answers, but rather with *how* you respond. They evaluate your body language, your appearance, details concerning your vehicle, your checkpoint-crossing history, and so on. Some set of their observations may be construed as articulable facts supporting a level of suspicion to further investigate and possibly to arrest, depending on the totality of the circumstances at hand.

    They don't just ask you "Hello sir, are you an American", and wave you through...

    In the last two months, at the rather small checkpoint where I live, they have hauled in almost 100 illegals (oh, I'm sorry, "undocumented guest workers who haven't done anything wrong but offer to clean our homes and weed our gardens for low low low wages...") for arrest, and nabbed a handful people on outstanding warrants, including one Very Bad Person. So, from objective evidence, the checkpoint is doing *something* useful.

    It also has our local illegal immigrant community in a bit of a tizzy - they are afraid to attend school, show up for medical treatment, use other county services, or head to the mainland for supplies.
    I think you and I are talking about two different situations. In the situation you outlined, geographic issues have somehow placed your place of residence on the wrong side of a border crossing checkpoint.
    It is at the border, and the officers there routinely ask people crossing questions to determine if they may enter.

    That is different from checkpoints on highways miles and miles from the border, and which are not border crossing points.

    Now with regard to the checkpoint I was concerned with near El Paso, on an Interstate HWY miles from the border, they in fact asked nothing.

    They did not ask, " are you an American", and wave you through..."

    Traffic was simply squeezed through a narrow checkpoint at which dogs could run and sniff up and down the length of the vehicle.

    SD suggested to one of my comments that the bathroom issue I raised could have been handled at that site. Maybe. But there were big signs saying not to exit your vehicle.

    Not one word was exchanged between officers and car occupants.
    In fact, I deliberately did not role my window down. CBP didn't care.

    There are serious issues surrounding the use of these interior checkpoints. Where does it stop? What are the limits?

    No one is truly free if you can be prevented from peacefully going about your lawful business for the convenience of an authority.

    Today it is a 10 minute wait on the side of a hot road while they let dogs sniff the tractor trailer. Tomorrow it will be papers. You can bet on it.

  11. #56
    Member Array MSGTTBAR's Avatar
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    I guess I have been through that I-10 Checkpoint east of El Paso over 100 times in the last 20 years in my 4 wheeler and my 18 wheeler. They always ask what I am carrying when I'm in my truck and if I'm a US citizen when in my 4 wheeler. Never been there more than 10 to 15 seconds in either venue. I always answer with my load info from the cab of my truck and "Yes, I am a US Citizen" from my car. And "Thank you for your service" from both. Always get a big smile and "Have a nice day".
    Life is too short to be serious!

  12. #57
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    I think there is a difference/commercial v private vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by MSGTTBAR View Post
    I guess I have been through that I-10 Checkpoint east of El Paso over 100 times in the last 20 years in my 4 wheeler and my 18 wheeler. They always ask what I am carrying when I'm in my truck and if I'm a US citizen when in my 4 wheeler. Never been there more than 10 to 15 seconds in either venue. I always answer with my load info from the cab of my truck and "Yes, I am a US Citizen" from my car. And "Thank you for your service" from both. Always get a big smile and "Have a nice day".
    Well, it took me way more than 10 or 15 seconds. IT was a 10-15 minute delay.

    No one asked anything. They just ran the dogs up the side of the vehicle.

    Truth be told, the ICE guys all looked like they were illegals.

    I am more willing to see this sort of procedure practiced on commercial long-haul rigs which could well be smuggling 100 people who need to be rescued than I am allowing it for private vehicles.

    The question, are you a US citizen is silly. Anyone can say, Si.

    There is no way to tell. You could have been born a citizen in Iowa and taken to Mexico to grow up. You would look and sound exactly like a Mexican; no English, no papers, but be a US Citizen.

    So the next logical step to make these checkpoints really work is to start asking for papers. And that is where I draw the line as to what I think is proper in a free society.

    (Just to back up my example, I know a guy who was born in Iowa, lived abroad for 25 without finding out that he had citizenship rights until he applied for a student visa. When ICE found out he was born here, they got him a US Passport. You can't tell a person's status by looking at them, talking to them, questioning them. And we don't need a society where everyone must have papers. G-d help us if we get there.)

  13. #58
    bae
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think you and I are talking about two different situations. In the situation you outlined, geographic issues have somehow placed your place of residence on the wrong side of a border crossing checkpoint.
    It is at the border, and the officers there routinely ask people crossing questions to determine if they may enter.
    Nope. I am travelling entirely within the United States, between two adjacent counties within the state of Washington. It is not the border. The ferry landing is simply a very convenient spot for them to set up their checkpoint, similar to the checkpoints they set up on other highways in Washington state.

    Traffic was simply squeezed through a narrow checkpoint at which dogs could run and sniff up and down the length of the vehicle.
    We have dogs too. They are allegedly looking for explosives. Several times they have caught Bad Guys with their car trunk full of explosives or other naughty things. One of them caught at another ferry terminal nearby was planning on blowing up the Space Needle in Seattle.

    There are serious issues surrounding the use of these interior checkpoints. Where does it stop? What are the limits?
    There have been a fair number of Supreme Court cases covering the issue, worth reading them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You can't tell a person's status by looking at them, talking to them, questioning them.
    Yet oddly the local Border Patrol guys at our checkpoint, where no "papers" are required to be produced, make arrests every day, purely with their simple questioning. And from looking at the arrest statistics the local BP chief shared with me last week, they aren't engaged in racial profiling.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Tomorrow it will be papers. You can bet on it.
    Ok, it is now "tomorrow" and, per your advice, I have a $10 bet riding on it. So, has anybody asked you for your "papers" today? Come on, now, don't lose my $10 for me. I need it for more tinfoil.
    Gonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSGTTBAR View Post
    I guess I have been through that I-10 Checkpoint east of El Paso over 100 times in the last 20 years in my 4 wheeler and my 18 wheeler. They always ask what I am carrying when I'm in my truck and if I'm a US citizen when in my 4 wheeler. Never been there more than 10 to 15 seconds in either venue. I always answer with my load info from the cab of my truck and "Yes, I am a US Citizen" from my car. And "Thank you for your service" from both. Always get a big smile and "Have a nice day".
    As it should be......well done sir!

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