Obligation to identify yourself.

Obligation to identify yourself.

This is a discussion on Obligation to identify yourself. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; In another thread a member posted: Whether you agree with the law or not....LEO can stop you anywhere and ask for ID...to that you must ...

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  1. #1
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    Question Obligation to identify yourself.

    In another thread a member posted:

    Whether you agree with the law or not....LEO can stop you anywhere and ask for ID...to that you must comply...you may not impede an investigation (questions)...
    It got me to wondering which States have such a law.

    To keep it simple, assume the following:

    1) You are NOT driving, so the requirements to exercise that "privilege" are not applicable.

    2) There is NO indication that you are or have recently been hunting, fishing, flying, running a business, or exercising any other licensed "privilege" which opens you to such requirements.

    3) You are NOT on any type of posted or private land.

    4) You are simply walk down a public path, sidewalk, etc.

    So, must you ID yourself, in any sort of voluntary conversation/status (i.e., if you are not detained by or is in the custody of a LEO) ?
    Last edited by DaveH; May 10th, 2008 at 11:09 PM. Reason: to stress the NOTs
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    I admittedly do not know the exact letter of the law in this regard but I see nothing to be gained by not cooperating with a police officer who is requesting identification.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    there have been federal and state cases about the ID that may be required - if I am driving I can be required to provide my operator's license - if I am walking I am only required to provide my name (and spelling) my address or SSAN (not both one or other)

    if I am carrying concealed firearm - I am required to notify and provide CHL and state picture ID (or operator's license)

    If I am fishing - fishing license to anyone on demand

    If hunting - hunting license

    it is usually a lot smoother if ID is provided YMMV IANAL Caveat Emptor


  4. #4
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    Definitely Maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    So, must you ID yourself, in any sort of voluntary conversation/status (i.e., if you are not detained by or is in the custody of a LEO) ?
    IANAL

    Supreme Court upholds state law requiring individuals to identify themselves when asked during investigative stop

    "In a 5-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld a Nevada law that authorizes police officers to detain individuals who are encountered under suspicious circumstances and who refuse to identify themselves when asked to do so.

    The Court’s ruling is very narrow, relying on the limited reach of the Nevada statute, which applies only to situations where an officer reasonably suspects that a crime has been or is being committed, and which requires the individual who is stopped to provide his or her name but not answer any other question or provide any other information. The decision does not resolve whether a statute that required presentation of a driver’s license or other identity documents would be constitutional. Nor does the decision require that a suspect identify him or herself in every situation, as the Court recognized that there may be cases where just providing one’s name may present a “real and appreciable fear” of self-incrimination by so doing."

    Stop and Identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    States with Stop & Identify Statutes:
    Alabama Ala. Code §15-5-30
    Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, Ch. 24-12 (enacted 2005)
    Arkansas Ark. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1)
    Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1)
    Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)
    Florida Fla. Stat. §856.021(2)
    Georgia Ga. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b)
    Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14
    Indiana Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5
    Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)
    Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)
    Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)
    Montana Mont. Code Ann. §46-5-401
    Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat. §29-829
    Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat. §171.123
    New Hampshire N. H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2
    New Mexico N. M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3
    New York N. Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50(1)
    North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)
    Ohio Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)
    Rhode Island R. I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1
    Utah Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15
    Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983
    Wisconsin Wis. Stat. §968.24 (PDF)

    Unless a specific local jurisdiction (city, town, county, township, etc.) has passed a “stop-and-identify” law, persons in states not listed above probably are not obligated to identify themselves when detained by police. However, the ACLU of Northern California cautions:[12]

    “And in any state, police do not always follow the law, and refusing to give your name may make them suspicious and lead to your arrest, so use your judgment. If you fear that your name may be incriminating, you can claim the right to remain silent, and if you are arrested, this may help you later. Giving a false name could be a crime.”

  5. #5
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    Red face <- That's a red face

    Quote Originally Posted by GettingOld2 View Post

    .... Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia....
    Dang.

    As much as I check Wikipedia I should have gone there first.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GettingOld2 View Post
    IANAL

    Supreme Court upholds state law requiring individuals to identify themselves when asked during investigative stop

    "In a 5-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld a Nevada law that authorizes police officers to detain individuals who are encountered under suspicious circumstances and who refuse to identify themselves when asked to do so.

    The Court’s ruling is very narrow, relying on the limited reach of the Nevada statute, which applies only to situations where an officer reasonably suspects that a crime has been or is being committed, and which requires the individual who is stopped to provide his or her name but not answer any other question or provide any other information. The decision does not resolve whether a statute that required presentation of a driver’s license or other identity documents would be constitutional. Nor does the decision require that a suspect identify him or herself in every situation, as the Court recognized that there may be cases where just providing one’s name may present a “real and appreciable fear” of self-incrimination by so doing."

    Stop and Identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    States with Stop & Identify Statutes:
    Alabama Ala. Code §15-5-30
    Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, Ch. 24-12 (enacted 2005)
    Arkansas Ark. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1)
    Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1)
    Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)
    Florida Fla. Stat. §856.021(2)
    Georgia Ga. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b)
    Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14
    Indiana Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5
    Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)
    Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)
    Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)
    Montana Mont. Code Ann. §46-5-401
    Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat. §29-829
    Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat. §171.123
    New Hampshire N. H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2
    New Mexico N. M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3
    New York N. Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50(1)
    North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)
    Ohio Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)
    Rhode Island R. I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1
    Utah Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15
    Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983
    Wisconsin Wis. Stat. §968.24 (PDF)

    Unless a specific local jurisdiction (city, town, county, township, etc.) has passed a “stop-and-identify” law, persons in states not listed above probably are not obligated to identify themselves when detained by police. However, the ACLU of Northern California cautions:[12]

    “And in any state, police do not always follow the law, and refusing to give your name may make them suspicious and lead to your arrest, so use your judgment. If you fear that your name may be incriminating, you can claim the right to remain silent, and if you are arrested, this may help you later. Giving a false name could be a crime.”
    Thanks, part of living in a nation of laws....is to know them!

  7. #7
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    The Court’s ruling is very narrow, relying on the limited reach of the Nevada statute, which applies only to situations where an officer reasonably suspects that a crime has been or is being committed, and which requires the individual who is stopped to provide his or her name
    OK, as I read this and the Wikipedia section there is no State with a "Papers Please!!!" type law.

    The "reasonably suspects that a crime has been or is being committed" parallels a "Terry Stop" requirements. So, it seems to me that the “stop-and-identify” laws require you be detained under the conditions of "Terry" before the LEO can require you to identify himself.

    IOW, if “Am I free to go" (i.e., in a consensual / voluntary conversation) , the no ID is required.


    As someone said in the other thread, I too have visited countries that have "Papers Please!!!" laws and I wouldn't want to live there.

    Glad to hear that we aren't there, yet.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  8. #8
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    Border Patrol agents can interrogate any person who is an alien or who the agent believes to be an alien as to his right to be or remain in the United States. A refusal to answer could be construed as an articulable fact supporting a level of suspicion to further investigate and possibly to arrest, depending on the totality of the circumstances at hand.

  9. #9
    Member Array GettingOld2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    Border Patrol agents can interrogate any person who is an alien or who the agent believes to be an alien as to his right to be or remain in the United States. A refusal to answer could be construed as an articulable fact supporting a level of suspicion to further investigate and possibly to arrest, depending on the totality of the circumstances at hand.
    Do you mean "At a Border Crossing", or do you mean anywhere anytime? If the latter, can you provide a reference?

  10. #10
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    Smile IDing yourself under Virginia "Law"

    Just got a response from a Virginia LEO that I had emailed the question. It is about what I thought it would be.

    Very easy to answer. No you do not have to identify yourself to LEO unless he/she is in the midst of detaining you.

    Now if he/she started a conversation through consensual stop, and he/she changes into investigative detention mode, the officer must notify the subject that he/she is detaining them and state the reason for the detention, no matter how short in time the detention may be.

    The "the officer must notify the subject that he/she is detaining them and state the reason for the detention" part sounds as it should be, IMHO.

    BTW -- If you read the list of States with Stop & Identify Statutes (on the Wikipedia site) you will not find Virginia listed there. Virginia has a strong "common law" tradition and a lot of things are not spelled out in "Statutes." If in the legislators' minds the current practice and judicial decisions are working OK, they leave it alone. If it ain't broke.... Sometime that is good. If you ever watch how laws get made, you'd know why.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  11. #11
    bae
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    Quote Originally Posted by GettingOld2 View Post
    Do you mean "At a Border Crossing", or do you mean anywhere anytime? If the latter, can you provide a reference?
    The authority of the Border Patrol is not limited to the immediate border, or to any arbitrary zone near it. USC§1357, USC §1225.

    There are quite a few Supreme Court cases on the subject, for those interested in digging.

    For context, I live in the San Juan Islands, which are part of Washington State. When I travel to the mainland, on the state ferry system, I must pass through a Border Patrol checkpoint they have set up at the ferry terminal. I am travelling entirely within the United States, on a state highway/ferry system, between two adjacent counties.

    If I do not provide them with my citizenship, they can detain me a "reasonable" amount of time until they satisfy themselves that I have a right to be in the country. They generally do this by running the plates to the car, then pulling up my records, if I sit there silently, refusing to answer their questions.

    Try getting out of the car bellowing about your constitutional rights, like one of my neighbors did, if you want to see a show...

  12. #12
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    Good info on this thread, but, what is the point of the original post?
    Just show your ID or if not with you just tell them who your are.
    The I do not have to say idea will just cause everyone involved more time and headaches plus delay in getting the real issue dealt with.

  13. #13
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    Just show your ID and make everyone's life a little easier.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxned View Post
    Just show your ID and make everyone's life a little easier.
    Amen..for heaven's sake.

  15. #15
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    Re: Making every-one's life a little easier

    First they came for the Communists,
    and I didn’t speak up,
    because I wasn’t a Communist.
    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak up,
    because I wasn’t a Jew.
    Then they came for the Catholics,
    and I didn’t speak up,
    because I was a Protestant.
    Then they came for me,
    and by that time there was no one
    left to speak up for me.

    by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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