Would you show ID to an LEO? - Page 4

Would you show ID to an LEO?

This is a discussion on Would you show ID to an LEO? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by HotGuns I've been watching this thread with interest and I am somewhat amazed at some of the responses. I will use one ...

View Poll Results: Would you show ID to an LEO if asked?

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Thread: Would you show ID to an LEO?

  1. #46
    New Member Array sbacheler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I've been watching this thread with interest and I am somewhat amazed at some of the responses.

    I will use one for an example.



    A seemingly "valid" reason?
    Do you already know why you are being asked to produce an I.D. ?

    What is not valid to you, may be valid to the cop asking.

    An example..
    Awhile back we were looking for felony parole violates. We take a some paperwork that has a name and an address on it. Some of the dates and info may be old but its all we have to go on.

    So I get an address and I go up to it and ring the doorbell. A young man answers meeting the description of the warrant. I ask several questions, he tells me he is not the one I am looking for,I walk into the living room where several young men are playing some war game on X-Box. I ask for their I.D.'s to basically prove who they say they are...because I don't know.

    They show them and I walk out. End of story.

    Now, same scenario, three guys playing, one refuses. He thinks what I am doing is not "valid" because after all, here he is sitting in a living room with his friends having a great time....and I walk in demanding to see I.D. He is ticked, he doesn't like the idea. So he refuses. I ask him one more time and he gives me some speech about not being required to. Fine, I say, explain to the warrant officer that issued the warrant. I hook him up, drop him off at the jail and move to my next warrant.

    He now has to prove that he ain't the bad-guy, that he's really a good guy with a case of mistaken I.D. Mistaken, because he was too stupid to make it easy on himself. He has now wasted his time, my time, and the jailers time of logging him in, searching him and all of the other stuff that jailers do. Now Mr.I donthavetoshowID takes it all the way to the judge,because he has been arrested, and he thinks it is a false arrest...after all..he did nothing wrong, right?

    He gets a lawyer who takes it to court and he ends up losing. Why, because he initially refused a simple request to provide I.D. that would have ended the thing before it got started. How do you think the judge will take that? Are you going to tell him that the request for I.D wasn't valid?

    I was present for a case, much like the one I described. I can say that the Judge wasn't very sympathetic at all. The guy lost his case, and whatever it cost hm for a lawyer.



    Did it ever occur to you that people LIE to the police all the time?
    Maybe you don't lie.Maybe you are completely honest. The police don't know you from Adam. Refusing ID when requested will get a very cynical eye cast upon you. The real bad-guys don't want you to know who they are and they will do everything n their power to keep you from finding out.

    I cant tell you how many have given even false I.D's. The favorite thing around here is to use their brothers,sisters, mothers, fathers I.D. That way when they are asked questions, they can sound a little bit intelligent about them, with out lying so much and getting caught in a lie.

    The thing is...
    a Cop. doesn't really care what you consider to be a "valid" reason.
    He just want to do his job in the most efficient manner possible. Any one that hinders that ability, will not be looked upon favorably.



    In your opinion...which is quite different from the officers.


    Right, wrong, call it what you want, that is the way it is.
    You mentioned that there was a warrant involved. What about a person walking along the street? Would you feel the same way?
    Or, this person only gives you their name, address and DOB (as required in PA), do you feel that would it give you reasonable suspicion to change it to a Terry Stop?

    You also may want to check out the following URL:
    Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9 - Page 15

    This is about a guy that refused to show ID when the LEOs asked him for ID. Long story short, he is probably going to sue the city and the PD for false arrest. Here is another link that cuts out the extra chat:
    GunBroker.com Message Forums - Dickson City, PA police demand "papers"/sieze arms


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    He now has to prove that he ain't the bad-guy, that he's really a good guy with a case of mistaken I.D. Mistaken, because he was too stupid to make it easy on himself. He has now wasted his time, my time, and the jailers time of logging him in, searching him and all of the other stuff that jailers do. Now Mr.I donthavetoshowID takes it all the way to the judge,because he has been arrested, and he thinks it is a false arrest...after all..he did nothing wrong, right?

    He gets a lawyer who takes it to court and he ends up losing. Why, because he initially refused a simple request to provide I.D. that would have ended the thing before it got started. How do you think the judge will take that? Are you going to tell him that the request for I.D wasn't valid?

    I was present for a case, much like the one I described. I can say that the Judge wasn't very sympathetic at all. The guy lost his case, and whatever it cost hm for a lawyer.
    After reading the report, the lawyer was laughing as he took the check to the bank.

    What makes those cases especially funny is the client makes bail, comes to my office and wants me to handle a "civil rights" case for them...then they tell me the story and asks if I can handle the criminal side for nothing against the winnings of his false arrest claim that he wants to file against the police.

    Eh, sorry. No can do.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    I show my I.D. at all stops, even if they don't ask. Haven't had any trouble yet.
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  4. #49
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    A distinction should be made between those who are anti-police and those who are not. That is a big part of the underlying reasons to show or not show an ID. So it is not just the ID question that is at issue here. What is not talked about at all is the anti-police sentiment of more than one poster.
    The answer to that question, pro or anti police, determines the ID question.
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  5. #50
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    What about a person walking along the street? Would you feel the same way?
    What people dont understand is that I am not going to ask for an ID unless I have a reason.
    Perhaps you meet the description of a bankrobber,a child molester, someone suspected of murder. It may be that you are in an area where someone reported a burglary in progrss and you are the only one there.

    You might just be a kid walking down the street. It may be that I have recieived a call that some kid ran off from Mom because he is mad at her and she wants him back.

    There are a multitude of reasons why I may ask for an ID.
    That doesnt mean that you have done anything wrong. It just means that I need to know who you are. I get the ID, I run it, nothing comes up and later in the shirft I dont remember your name because its not important to what I am doing.

    Or, this person only gives you their name, address and DOB (as required in PA), do you feel that would it give you reasonable suspicion to change it to a Terry Stop?
    Depends on what I have heard on the radio prior to me stopping you.
    If I hear that some body got in a bar fight,pulled a knife, and did a substantial amount of damage and was wearing a red T shirt, a pair of jeans and had a scruffy beard,and you happen to look like him, I might.


    People assume too much and they never think that things could be different from their own little worlds. They think that just because a cop aks for an ID, they are up to no good. That is usally not the case. They usaully have a good reason for doing so.

    After reading the report, the lawyer was laughing as he took the check to the bank.
    Yeah...an honest lawyer would tell the truth and tell the client that he had little chance of winning. Some laywers though...just see it as an easy check and give their clients false hope.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #51
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    Thumbs down False assertion based on a bad assumption

    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    The answer to that question, pro or anti police, determines the ID question.


    Not at all true! You have made a bad assumption, with that claim.

    I am very pro-police -- especially the Uniforms on the real job. I have LEO and Corrections Officers in my immediate family. I have a number of friends that are LEOs. My best friend, before retirement was a Tactical Sgt. I worked hand-in-hand with LEOs, before retirement.

    What I am "Anti" is a movement toward an "Internal Passport."

    What I am "Anti" is the idea of a "Papers Please!!!" society. As someone on another thread pointed out, I, too, have seen some of those countries and I don't want to live in one.

    If there are any police that I don't trust (as a group), it is the appointed, politically motivated, front-office lackeies.

    The vast majority of LEOs I know are not anti-gun. Yet at the hearings at the State level, the "Chiefs" line up against CHP and other pro-gun issues. This past year, one even reversed his testimony, on-orders.

    Sure, there may be a very few bad apples. But the vast majority of working level LEOs are great men -- men I would trust with my life.

    What I don't trust are some of the politicians who would give up liberty for the hope, or illusion, of security and/or efficiency.
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  7. #52
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    depends on the context. here in and around drum which id (military or civilian) would depend on the situation. back home most the LEO's know me and i'd probbly laugh at them if they asked.
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  8. #53
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    Great post Dave H...
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    What people dont understand is that I am not going to ask for an ID unless I have a reason.
    Perhaps you meet the description of a bankrobber,a child molester, someone suspected of murder. It may be that you are in an area where someone reported a burglary in progrss and you are the only one there.

    You might just be a kid walking down the street. It may be that I have recieived a call that some kid ran off from Mom because he is mad at her and she wants him back.

    There are a multitude of reasons why I may ask for an ID.
    That doesnt mean that you have done anything wrong. It just means that I need to know who you are. I get the ID, I run it, nothing comes up and later in the shirft I dont remember your name because its not important to what I am doing.
    Excellent example of what was approved by the Supreme Court.

    Supreme Court upholds state law requiring individuals to identify themselves when asked during an "investigative stop."

    In a 5-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld a Nevada law that authorizes police officers to detain individuals who are encountered under suspicious circumstances and who refuse to identify themselves when asked to do so.

    Please note the "who are encountered under suspicious circumstances."

    This thread and another thread (which I started) grew out of a random stop thread.

    There an LEO posted:

    I'm an LEO, and I don't like these checkpoints... Outside of emergency exigent circumstances, I don't see a need or justification for random stops.
    Also, as I posted earlier:

    If under the conditions of a "Terry" stop, yes -- without hesitation.

    If while exercising any "privilege" that carries with it the need to ID oneself to have that "privilege", yes -- without hesitation.

    In most emergency situations (assuming I understand -- w/ or w/o an explanation for the LEO), yes.

    In a "Papers Please!!!" or other internal passport situation, No!
    HotGuns' examples (above) are fine examples of a "Terry" stops and emergency situations. ID would be shown w/o hesitation

    Were I driving and came to a random DUI checkpoint, I would be exercising a "privilege" that carries with it the need to ID oneself, and would not hesitate to do so.

    However, were they asking everyone (not just the driver) in all the cars passing through for identification w/o establishing any suspicious circumstances, we could be approaching an internal passport situation. And I could have problems with that. Were it to become a widespread practice, I would have problems with it.

    And it has to do with public policy, not the LEOs themselves.
    Last edited by DaveH; May 18th, 2008 at 08:05 PM. Reason: added (not just the driver)
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  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Excellent example of what was approved by the Supreme Court.

    Supreme Court upholds state law requiring individuals to identify themselves when asked during an "investigative stop."

    In a 5-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld a Nevada law that authorizes police officers to detain individuals who are encountered under suspicious circumstances and who refuse to identify themselves when asked to do so.

    Please note the "who are encountered under suspicious circumstances."
    But the author of the majority opinion, Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, made it clear that he regarded the disclosure of one's name, the only piece of information the Nevada law specifically requires, as a modest intrusion on privacy.
    Actually, these are two separate issues. The Supreme Court upheld the Nevada law regarding giving one's name. Not giving one's ID, which is what this thread, and what Hotguns is talking about.

    Now, I'll get my 10 foot pole back out.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by morintp View Post
    Actually, these are two separate issues. The Supreme Court upheld the Nevada law regarding giving one's name. Not giving one's ID, which is what this thread, and what Hotguns is talking about.

    Now, I'll get my 10 foot pole back out.
    Good point. Good catch.

    I was using refusing to identify oneself in a broader sense that the actual question in this thread.

    Guess I sort of rolled all three threads together, when I was originally trying to isolate the "policy" issues from the details and emotions.

    But my personal basic view stand re: any movement toward "Internal Passports" and identification papers, random stops, and checkpoints.

    Your correction just pushes the "Public Policy" (per current Court decisions) a notch father away from away from "Papers Please!!!"
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I'm not convinced, because here we have a LEO just asking for an ID. I don't think he or she would ask for no reason at all. I mean, we have to give them some credit somewhere. So I assume the request is for a reason. Not to harrass me. So I give the ID to the officer as a show of respect and compliance with a harmless request.
    Others apparently see it as another step in the mass erosion of liberties procured by us in the American Revolution. I think it goes too far. I don't think it is at all invasive as some would believe. I think it is not on the same level at all with really intrusive goverment Big Brother actions.
    It is a request for an ID. That is all it is. To make it into something more than that seems to read a lot into it that is not there. This is not a goverment agency taking away your passport or installing a microchip on your person etc It is a cop asking for an ID.
    So we disagree, but we are just talking about it because someone asked. Would YOU give an ID to a LEO, and my answer for myself only is, sure, not a problem. He is not fingerprinting me on the side of the road or taking DNA samples. I don't see it as this big governmental intrusion that if left unchecked, will lead to bigger and worse intrusions.
    I will go a step further. If I have done nothing wrong, and a cop comes to my front door and says sorry to bother you but can we look in your backyard. We were just chasing this guy and he may be in one of the yards. Can we cut thru your house to get outside there? A lot of folks here would say no.
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  13. #58
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    DaveH: If you think the great majority of LEOS are great men and you trust them, then why do you balk at handing them an ID. The cops on the street are the ones asking for it, not the politician fat cats in some office. And if it is the officer who has the reason, I don't think the request comes from higher ups in the dept or in the government. That is why I personally do not mind handing it to him or her. It is just between the two of us and does not originate in some conspiracy to deprive me/us of our rights. So that is why I don't have a problem with it.
    But I still think there is SOME relationship between being anti-LEO and anti-giving them an ID. Maybe not for you but for some other folks. I get that strong impression.
    Check bolded and ask yourself: How often does usurpation ever originate from some sinister conspiracy? ...but it happens eventually. And it's never just between the two of you. It's a job(granted usually a thankless one). He has orders. He follows them. Any and all actions on duty are official duty and nothing is just between the two of you.

    The other interesting thing I find is the argument between driving being a "privilege" and firearms ownership a "right" and how quickly everyone is ready to agree that driving is a "privilege". Sure uncle sam might say so and makes darn well sure that we know their stance on it(DL's required), but what is a car? Private property, right? Would you be so inclined to say you have a "privilege" to live in your home? It's private property too, right?

    Some will argue that the house/car argument is different because a car can be a deadly weapon or misused...ok, fine. What about those firearms again? Then again, why stop there? What about those steak knives in your kitchen. They're weapons too. For me, I believe they all fall under the same tree and since we've already caved on one, it's that much easier for folks to cave on the rest(driving is a privilege therefore I must submit ID when randomly stopped...).

    It's bad enough I even have to have an ID (IE I have no choice in the matter). I probably would still have one anyway if I had the choice, but I don't. But you better be DARN SURE you have a good reason for me to give you an ID at some random stop and it better be more than just the state leg code that says you have that power for whatever you "feel" like. I don't want my hard earned money stolen to pay "Yes" men. If I have to pay for it, I want folks that know the difference between right and wrong wearing that uniform.

    edit: I've obviously refrained from using the "10' pole"...mine is the retractable version
    Last edited by packinnova; May 18th, 2008 at 10:28 PM. Reason: edit
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  14. #59
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I just hit the edit button on my whole previous message that you just quoted, having thought better of it, and posted this message here at the same time you did without reading yours........I think I was a little hasty and was wrong. If this ID question means that if we have to do this now with this cop, then what will they make us do NEXT, then I see the point after all. I was thinking just in terms of the here and now and not what it could mean later, so I was wrong in my whole approach to it. Saw the issue too narrowly, and took it literally to mean a cop asking for an ID. But eventually there may be more to it.
    So I see what the main point is now, and I was looking at it strictly from a point of view that focused on me in my car and the LEO in his or her vehicle, only. Not the larger possible ramifications. I stand corrected.
    I thought the refusal to give an ID was based on just not wanting to because it was not required. But I see what the point is now of the larger picture.
    But I personally would still give an officer an ID.

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