Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms? - Page 3

Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms?

This is a discussion on Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; to add to the previous post, I will share some wisdom I gained from my Grandfather: "we do not have drug problems, gun problems or ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    to add to the previous post, I will share some wisdom I gained from my Grandfather:

    "we do not have drug problems, gun problems or crime problems; we have people problems. When we took prayer and moral teachings from our schools and prison construction projects began outnumbering school construction projects we have already begun the slide down the slippery slope."
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    edrn: I see your point. But when police target inanimate objects all the time, i.e. explosives, they are getting the materials used by bombers off the streets are they not? The would be bombers are punished after the fact but for prevention purposes their tools, so to speak, are targeted.
    Just like the Secret Service moves to confiscate amounts of counterfeit money, that is also inanimate, so they take it before the counterfeiters are free to use it. Likewise with confiscating anything like anthrax. It is inanimate, but we don't ignore it til someone uses it, do we?
    These are all inanimate objects and yet they are the subject of government raids all the time. Meth labs, all inanimate. Police do not wait til someone uses or sells the meth.
    Just so, these guns that are brought up on the Interstate to northern cities, they come from somewhere. To intercept them is either right or wrong. Which do you think it is?
    These are guns and are to be accorded protection, according to most here. So why would you not say that the gunrunner has rights also, to keep the firearms. They are inanimate objects and cannot hurt anyone til they fall into the hands of criminals. So do we prevent that or let the guns go their own way as they are nothing more than tools.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    My precise point is this: Does the confiscation of those 500 guns mean that your legally owned guns are in jeopardy. When feds confiscate a bomb factory, are your legal ingredients for a bomb, although you are not using them as such, are they in jeopardy?
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Gun running, illegal transportation of a firearm, etc are all illegal and the people who commit those crimes should go to prison. Yes, the guns should be confiscated, because they were involved in a crime. I just wish the police would auction them off instead of melting them, but that's a different story.

    Nobody is saying that a gun used in the commission of a crime should not be confiscated. We all agree with that. We all agree the perpetrator should go to jail. We already have laws to cover all that.

    I'm not sure what you are proposing, other than in your first few posts it seemed like you were saying we should take all of the guns from people who might later use them to commit a crime.

    If that is indeed what you were proposing, how do you go about it? Door to door inspections, and criminal background checks on everybody? Gun Registration?

    I'm also not sure what good you think confiscating a gun from an individual who may of used it later in a crime is going to do. He'll steal another firearm if he has to, or he'll use a baseball bat.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Not at all what I was proposing. I was proposing an all out war on illegal use and possession of firearms, which naturally would include but not be limited to, prosecution of those who use or possess illegal firearms. Including gunrunning. This goes to acting before the fact, not after innocent people are killed.
    What is a part of my proposed action involves getting to the source of the illegal guns coming, as I understand, along I-95 to Northern cities, for example. Same as stopping huge shipments of cocaine or heroin in Miami naturally affects the street guys nationwide, as those drugs they waited for never do arrive at their intended destination.
    This would be my main thrust. To infiltrate the SOURCE of those handguns headed for illegal distribution e.g. infiltrating and busting two or three big time hotshots in Miami, for example, who ship 5000 guns a week up North, that kind of thing.
    But what I said in my initial posts was different than what folks thought I had said. I did not say that we take all guns from everyone who might use them later on. But when people hear the words "confiscate", "illegal guns" etc they react with emotion and ignore the original question, which is fine, because I have questions, not answers.
    I have no answers. My questions are designed to help me get information from you folks. By the time I was going to get into the specifics of the war on illegal firearms possessed by savages, our own little war began, largely because my question was heard as a Brady bill type of thing, when it was not.
    With regard to what good confiscating one gun from one guy who will use it later on, what good will that do, I will leave that to your imagination whether it is better to have 2000 illegal guns floating around in gangs in Los Angeles,or 1000 of them.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I just don't think there is a huge underground gun smuggling trade lurking beneath our noses. I don't think there are 18 wheelers bringing guns up from Mexico or Cuba, uhh, I mean Florida. I think most of the 'illegal guns' come from home burglary's, gunshop robbery's, or straw purchases.

    We already have an agency that investigates those...(too aggressively in my opinion).

    It's called the BATFE...they are the same ones that regulate those explosives you were talking about in post 33.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I had heard that a lot of guns come up from the South on Interstate 95. I guess not. And if they do, it might be so few as not to be a problem. This is why I came on this particular thread, to learn something and to get answers. I have no answers, just questions. So most come from home burglaries etc.
    And that agency that investigates too aggressively, I see what you mean. Maybe people in general pay too much attention to the guns used by criminals, I mean, put the criminals away and leave it at that.
    But that is a lot of home burglaries etc to account for all those firearms.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    The more I think about it the more I think that maybe there should be NO focus on the guns these thugs have in the inner cities. We catch them after the victims die. If that ain't good enough? Sorry :) Can only do so much.
    This is what I mean by live and learn, learning something new nearly every day. Now I see why there is no war on drugs or illegally possessed guns or anything at all. No need for it.
    There is not much we can do in the way of prevention, I mean.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  9. #39
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    The more I think about it the more I think that maybe there should be NO focus on the guns these thugs have in the inner cities. We catch them after the victims die. If that ain't good enough? Sorry :) Can only do so much.
    This is what I mean by live and learn, learning something new nearly every day. Now I see why there is no war on drugs or illegally possessed guns or anything at all. No need for it.
    There is not much we can do in the way of prevention, I mean.
    We can't answer a question that is constantly changing.
    To follow your premise:
    The man driving the semi load of weapons is already in violation of federal law. The guns will be confiscated and he will be arrested.
    The thug that is illegally in posession of a firearm will be arrested if caught and the gun will be confiscated.
    We cannot foresee what anyone will do and it is not legal (according to our judicial system to insert our opinion upon them) so, yes we do have to wait for a crime to be committed before taking action.
    The gangs (MS13 for example) are using machetes for their initiations now. The weapon is not the problem, our nature is the problem.
    You cannot legislate morality and that is really what your question is leading to.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

  10. #40
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    The problem with your "war on illegal guns" is the arbitrary term "illegal." Who has the authority, or SHOULD have said authority, to make any gun illegal?

    Does the Second Amendment not state that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed? If one must have a license to keep and bear arms, does that not constitute some form of infringement? Then who defines one as a "thug?" How do we clearly define who is labeled a thug and who is not when no crime has yet been committed?

    This is exactly the thinking of the anti crowd. Take the illegal guns of the street and we'll have less violence. The problem is, the gun does not or should not become illegal until it is used in the commission of a crime.

    The mere licensing and registration system becomes the system of prohibition. By making it increasingly difficult to legally own a gun you create an illegal gun. The problem is clearly not the guns. The problem is the people. You cannot wage war on something that does not exist before the crime, with hope of preventing the crime. It is illogical to assume otherwise.

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    Somtimes I think we forget that the war on drugs is actually a war on drug dealers. The war on terrorism is actually a war against terrorists.
    Why, when an artist creates a magnificent sculpting do we not give the glory to the hammer or chisel that he or she used? Yet when a firearm is used it is the focal point and not the one who used it.
    The fact is that an individual becomes a murderer long before he carries out the act. He becomes a murderer in his heart and that is one place we can't enforce our laws.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array Roadrunner's Avatar
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    I think I see what you're saying, but you continue to insist on labeling your proposal in the exact way that Sarah Brady or Micheal Bloomberg would; i.e. targeting the tool and not the user. Your last two posts suggest targeting large scale gun-running organizations and taking them down. I wholeheartedly support that; not because it will "get illegal guns off of the street", but because doing so will apprehend and punish people engaged in illegal activity. You want to frame it as targeting the inanimate objects (just like the Brady Bunch) while I want to target the illegal activity. Same result (bad guys arrested and go to jail, contraband is seized), different sales pitch. I agree with your proposal but not your sales pitch.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I see that, as was said, we have to wait til a crime is committed. So there is no prevention possible.
    Arresting bad guys and throwing them in prison is after the fact, after someone is killed. I know we do that. I am all for that, there are very few who are not. So that part of it was not asked because I already knew the answer to that one, which is to punish the criminal.
    My question was can we do anything before that, but it appears not. That was the only question I really had, can we do anything about it beforehand and the answer is no.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Not at all what I was proposing. I was proposing an all out war on illegal use and possession of firearms, which naturally would include but not be limited to, prosecution of those who use or possess illegal firearms. Including gunrunning. This goes to acting before the fact, not after innocent people are killed.
    What is a part of my proposed action involves getting to the source of the illegal guns coming, as I understand, along I-95 to Northern cities, for example. Same as stopping huge shipments of cocaine or heroin in Miami naturally affects the street guys nationwide, as those drugs they waited for never do arrive at their intended destination.
    This would be my main thrust. To infiltrate the SOURCE of those handguns headed for illegal distribution e.g. infiltrating and busting two or three big time hotshots in Miami, for example, who ship 5000 guns a week up North, that kind of thing.
    But what I said in my initial posts was different than what folks thought I had said. I did not say that we take all guns from everyone who might use them later on. But when people hear the words "confiscate", "illegal guns" etc they react with emotion and ignore the original question, which is fine, because I have questions, not answers.
    I have no answers. My questions are designed to help me get information from you folks. By the time I was going to get into the specifics of the war on illegal firearms possessed by savages, our own little war began, largely because my question was heard as a Brady bill type of thing, when it was not.
    With regard to what good confiscating one gun from one guy who will use it later on, what good will that do, I will leave that to your imagination whether it is better to have 2000 illegal guns floating around in gangs in Los Angeles,or 1000 of them.
    I'm not quite sure can completely answer the multitude of changing questions accurately here, but it seems to me you're swatting at ants and the elephants are walking right by. Ask yourself why is a gun "illegal". Because some dingbat made them illegal right? Why? What's wrong with "gun-running"? Because sometimes they end up with felons, or because they get to folks without having background checks, or... or... or...? I'm not going into every possible answer for my own question here, but let's go with the first one (convicted felons) for starters. They're out, they were convicted, but they're out. Have they paid their debt to society? Are they still a danger? Both those questions must be answered. If yes to question 2, then why are they even out roaming the streets in the first place?
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  15. #45
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I'm not sure what you are proposing, other than in your first few posts it seemed like you were saying we should take all of the guns from people who might later use them to commit a crime.

    If that is indeed what you were proposing, how do you go about it?
    I think the two are disconnected. I would certainly support the proposition to take all of the guns away from people who might later use them in a crime. I don't know how that could be controversial. (Of course, I have underestimated that in the past.)

    Currently, we have no way to determine that beforehand.

    I would be surprised if anyone thought Cho should have been able to have a gun it it would have been known he would massacre the people at VT.

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