Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms? - Page 4

Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms?

This is a discussion on Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Truth is the first casualty of war. Always has been, always will be. Doesn't matter if it's the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, WW2, ...

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Thread: Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms?

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Truth is the first casualty of war.

    Always has been, always will be.

    Doesn't matter if it's the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, WW2, the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, the War on Terror, or the War on Illegal Firearms.

    Before the very first shot is fired in anger, both sides will have already started lyin' their butts off. It just doesn't become clear until after the LAST shot has been fired, and enough time passes that the winner is comfortable revealing how their lies were all just a part of the strategery.

    ...because, in WAR, it doesn't matter who's RIGHT -- only who's LEFT.

    We've been fighting the "War on Poverty" for over 50 years now. We've been fighting the "War on Drugs" for over 30 years now.

    Do we have LESS, or MORE, of each to show for the BILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of lives we've thrown at those "urgent societal problems"?

    No, we DON'T need a "war" on "illegal" firearms.

    (and if anyone suggests a War on Stupidity, I'll lose my composure entirely, because all we need is MORE idjits)


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Nothing can be done about it beforehand.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #48
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    The problem with your "war on illegal guns" is the arbitrary term "illegal." Who has the authority, or SHOULD have said authority, to make any gun illegal?
    Illegal is not an arbitrary word. It defines whether a particular behavior should be condoned in society. The legislature should have and does have the authority to pass laws.

    Does the Second Amendment not state that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed? If one must have a license to keep and bear arms, does that not constitute some form of infringement?
    The Second Amendment is a prohibition against the Federal government infringing on the right to keep and bear arms. It enumerates a God given right that the people of the United States recognize as how we should conduct ourselves. Having a license does not infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. Being denied a license (or a gun) MAY constitute an infringement. Obviously, we do not allow an incarcerated felon to have guns. That person has lost the 'right' to have a gun because we as a society have determined that to be the law.

    With rights come responsibility. If someone is not sufficiently responsible to have a gun we should not allow that person to have a gun. Certainly there is much crime in prison and it would be better if those jailed could defend themselves with a gun, no?

    Then who defines one as a "thug?" How do we clearly define who is labeled a thug and who is not when no crime has yet been committed?
    Like pornography, I know it when I see it.

    The problem is, the gun does not or should not become illegal until it is used in the commission of a crime.
    The holder of an illegal gun is committing a crime by definition. It doesn't have to be used.

    The mere licensing and registration system becomes the system of prohibition. By making it increasingly difficult to legally own a gun you create an illegal gun.
    Licensing and registration is not prohibition. What some fear is that registering guns is a prelude to confiscation. Irresponsible people should not be allowed to own guns and we should make it as difficult as possible for those who would do harm to others to own guns. I cant imagine anyone endorsing a proposal to supply guns to gang members. (Of course, I would never have imagined providing needles to illegal drug addicts, either.)

    The problem is clearly not the guns. The problem is the people. You cannot wage war on something that does not exist before the crime, with hope of preventing the crime. It is illogical to assume otherwise.
    Of course you can! We wage war on terrorism by infiltrating their cells and stopping them before they murder innocent people. Surely, you don't suggest waiting for a terrorist attack rather than preventing it.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Here is what I originally had in mind. You figure it out. I am done.
    A little savage in a big city says i think I'm gonna go shoot somebody and get some dough. F 'm I just gonna kill em fiveoh aint s..t
    So he goes, but first he has a gun or gets one.
    Where did he get it?
    Could anything be done to restrict or prohibit his access to a gun.
    If not, then he gets a gun, goes shoots somone, five oh catches him he goes to the metal crib.
    Fine.
    Next loser savage comes along. Now he wants da same ting. They always have access to guns.
    WHERE ARE THESE PARTICULAR GUNS COMING FROM?
    I have no answers, just questions. I am interested in what if anything can be done about his ready access and supply re guns for these types.
    This is my original intent in the very first post when I said war on illegal guns. Then some said they did not know what that meant, some said define illegal, some said define guns etc etc. So here we are with this question, to which I have no answers but I do have suggestions.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    To make it more dramatic and just as true:
    Los Angeles. It is known that if you turn down the wrong street in the wrong neighborhood, little savages will open fire on you.
    What is wrong with an all-out preemptive strike against these clowns the same as we did in Baghdad, without the bombing? Some all out, all the way, WAR against this kind of BS on our streets?
    This is along the very same lines of what I mean when I say an all out war on illegally used and possessed firearms. We know where they are in these neighborhoods. We know who the players are. What is the story?
    I am talking about an actual war on these people and THEIR firearms.
    We sit back and arrest them as they come into our view, after the innocents are dead.
    In this post and the preceding, the accent is not only on the criminals but on their guns, and their access to them and where in the world are they getting these guns? Ain't from burglaries entirely.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  6. #51
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    I suspect that the vast majority of "illegal" guns USED to be legally owned by someone.

    (until they were stolen, or traded for other "illegal" goods or services)

    SOME of them, no doubt, were purchased from decent, law-abiding gun owners in private sales. You know....that "gun show loophole" we keep hearing about? I'm sure private sales account for PART of the problem, but I'm equally certain that MOST guns in the hands of criminals got there via burglary or drug abuse.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I think a lot come up from the South via I-95, Atlanta specifically, and other locations. Not all but a sizeable portion. Otherwise, that is an awful lot of burglaries.
    My solution to all this would be so draconian that it would not be tolerated for an instant.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Also, the more you restrict ANY commodity, the more robust its black market becomes. Profits increase. And then VIOLENCE increases.

    Your local gun shop owner isn't having shootouts in the street with his rivals. Neither are the liquor store owners.

    Neither are pharmacists.

    Drug dealers, on the other hand.....

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Not restriction so much as an absolute war on those particular items in those particular hands. It would not be so mild as to be called a restriction.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  10. #55
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms?
    Probably the same reasons there isn't a war on gangs. There's more money and benefits to be had making the war on drugs and that tends to thin resources a bit.
    Last edited by Ram Rod; May 23rd, 2008 at 10:45 PM.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Not restriction so much as an absolute war on those particular items in those particular hands. It would not be so mild as to be called a restriction.
    So that your question can really be answered, how about defining what you mean by absolute war?

    Interdiction of commerce? Roadblocks on I-95? Unrestricted search & seizure? How about a sanction on the manufacturers of guns that are being used illegally? If criminals are using Kel-Tecs, wouldn't you decrease crime by shutting Kel-Tec down? How about an assault weapons ban? Maybe a ban on high-capacity magazines, since criminals use them?

    Absolute war? Let's hear your battle plan.
    Cheers,
    Rod
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  12. #57
    Senior Member Array mech1369dlw's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as an illegal gun. That also applies to baseball bats, sticks, pipes, rocks, chains, rope, etc etc etc. I can load my mag up, put in the gun and charge it. The hammer is back, there is one in the tube, the safety is off, it is laying on the kitchen table. Until someone picks it up and decides to use it, it won't go off. Cockroaches will run this planet before that gun goes off if no one touches it. Same goes with the gun that the piece of garbage has. He can load it, cock it, take the safety off and lay it on the table. It will never go off till he touches it.

    What the problem is, that after the piece of garbage picks that gun or bat or knife, etc etc etc, up and decides to do something bad with it against someone, is the system. We have to coddle them, make them feel like they were the victim. The court system is overloaded so bad, that most of the time, the piece of garbage is let of with little or no penalty. The prisons are so full of garbage that newer bad guys are given little or no time in jail. We slap them on the wrist for everything but the most violent crime. Even then, it has little effect on them.

    If the system would punish the people so severely, that they would think about what will happen to them if they use a gun or a bat or knife, a lot of crime would go away. Some people, you just can't reach. In those situations, make an example out of them for everyone to see and hear about. You get hard enough on the criminals, that they know we ain't gonna take it anymore, most crime will go away. The tool,(guns, stick, knife, etc etc) is not the problem, it is the hammerheads that use those tools for bad purposes that create the Brady Bunch and all the other "control" freaks.
    A person is justified in the use of deadly force, if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

  13. #58
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    We should have extraordinarily severe punishment for the commission of any crime by use of a gun or while in possession of a gun. This would deter your average thug who wants to burglarize your home from carrying one, and keep those too stupid to weigh the risk off the streets if they're caught.

    The only issue for the law-abiding becomes, perhaps, incidents in which a gun was used in legitimate self-defense, yet the victim is treated as the criminal.

    I also think we, as communities, have a right to regulate to some degree who can legally carry a gun when in the public sphere. (As in, carrying a gun is a right, but you have to meet certain conditions and levels of proficiency.)

    It's been my shocking experience to see prosecutors decline gun charges against drug-dealing illegal aliens in a city that has pretty much banned guns for legal citizens.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentX View Post
    We should have extraordinarily severe punishment for the commission of any crime by use of a gun or while in possession of a gun. This would deter your average thug who wants to burglarize your home from carrying one, and keep those too stupid to weigh the risk off the streets if they're caught.
    We should have extraordinarily severe punishment for the commission of any crime, period. I don't think the presence of a gun makes a crime worse.

    I think we should have extraordinarily severe punishment for the commission of a crime involving a baseball bat, or a tire iron, or stomping somebody to death.(and bow&arrows, and rocks, and anything else that is used to maliciously injure somebody)
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  15. #60
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    I agree with mech and Kerbouchard

    Guns are protected by the 2nd Amendment. We are all free people here. If crimes are being committed in big cities and the people and their local governments aren't doing anything about it, too bad for them. They should start shooting back. That's JMO though.

    Austin

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