Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms? - Page 7

Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms?

This is a discussion on Why Not A War On ILLEGAL firearms? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; That's half where I was going; I was referring more to the organized violence (moonshiners and now drug-runners), but your point is still valid and ...

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  1. #91
    BAC
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    That's half where I was going; I was referring more to the organized violence (moonshiners and now drug-runners), but your point is still valid and still part of what I was getting at. The difference is that while most all violent crimes involve drugs or alcohol, most alcohol and drug use do not result in violent crimes.

    If you are correct (and I think you are) and not much would change if drugs were legal, do you believe the costs to keep this "drug war" hidden are worth it if the only thing that's happening is that it's hiding an otherwise known problem? I'm of the mind that society can't fix a problem it's not confronted with, which may be naive, but it still boils down to whether or not the energy and money spent on the "war on drugs" is worth what it does, when the only thing we know it does is create a guaranteed black market, create unintended consequences, and as you've pointed out only hide a problem that would still be there otherwise.


    -B


  2. #92
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    Let me see:
    Bad guys shoot back
    Bad guys who belong to big gangs might kill the family of a politican (see Mexico) to send a message.
    Gangs have lots of money to buy lawyers to fight charges
    The people in charge think that the people who commit crimes are merely misunderstood and really need a hug and lots of love, however they think any law abiding person who owns a gun is Satan spawn and the true threat to their world.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    That's half where I was going; I was referring more to the organized violence (moonshiners and now drug-runners), but your point is still valid and still part of what I was getting at. The difference is that while most all violent crimes involve drugs or alcohol, most alcohol and drug use do not result in violent crimes.

    If you are correct (and I think you are) and not much would change if drugs were legal, do you believe the costs to keep this "drug war" hidden are worth it if the only thing that's happening is that it's hiding an otherwise known problem? I'm of the mind that society can't fix a problem it's not confronted with, which may be naive, but it still boils down to whether or not the energy and money spent on the "war on drugs" is worth what it does, when the only thing we know it does is create a guaranteed black market, create unintended consequences, and as you've pointed out only hide a problem that would still be there otherwise.


    -B
    But thats just it... nots not only hiding it, its containing it. I dont think the problem will ever go away, but I do think we can contain it and keep society upright.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    So, you think crack towns would be nice? As long as drugs cost money, no matter if its cheap or not, there will be violence that goes along with it.

    Alcohol is legal... do you know how many violent crimes that alcohol plays a role in? Almost all... its drugs or alcohol. Any cop will tell you that 90% of their workload is alcohol related. If drugs were legal, that wouldn't change a damn thing except that it wouldn't be hidden as much.

    Drugs would take on the same role as alcohol, only the ingredient is far more powerful.
    Then again, maybe we can legalize it... then we really will have the zombie invasion we fantasize about.
    Marijuana is this countries largest cash crop! More money is spent on this one drug then all the rest put together!!
    These Idiots need to legalize it, TAX IT( That's why there mad now).
    And Stop Cocaine and Heroin from coming in our country by sealing up the borders.
    There cooking poison all over this country!
    Alcohol is bad enough by itself.
    You get a junkie marijuana , and tequila.
    One he drives slow, and a overdose puts him to sleep!
    The other he can operate his body without remembering a thing, resulting in most of your calls.
    Weed is a gateway drug ,I agree, but these dealers are staying in business with it's profits.
    You take that away from them and the go down, or stick out like a sore thumb.
    Most kids are looking for marijuana from there dealer( and he hooks them on harder drugs).
    I would rather have a clerk check his ID to see if he was 21.
    JMO ...

    ETA: on topic ....Guns are good...people bad
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    Marijuana is this countries largest cash crop! More money is spent on this one drug then all the rest put together!!
    These Idiots need to legalize it, TAX IT( That's why there mad now).
    And Stop Cocaine and Heroin from coming in our country by sealing up the borders.
    There cooking poison all over this country!
    Alcohol is bad enough by itself.
    You get a junkie marijuana , and tequila.
    One he drives slow, and a overdose puts him to sleep!
    The other he can operate his body without remembering a thing, resulting in most of your calls.
    Weed is a gateway drug ,I agree, but these dealers are staying in business with it's profits.
    You take that away from them and the go down, or stick out like a sore thumb.
    Most kids are looking for marijuana from there dealer( and he hooks them on harder drugs).
    I would rather have a clerk check his ID to see if he was 21.
    JMO ...

    I'll agree with this, with an exception to the tax thing... if they were "mad" about this, they would be hitting the dealers and cultivators with tax violations, and they are not.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #96
    BAC
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    And that brings us to the million-dollar question: is it any more a problem than alcohol was during the era of Prohibition? It's an off-hand way of asking "Is containment worth it," or "Would legalizing drugs knock society down?"


    -B

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    And that brings us to the million-dollar question: is it any more a problem than alcohol was during the era of Prohibition? It's an off-hand way of asking "Is containment worth it," or to borrow your verbiage, "Would legalizing drugs knock society down?"


    -B
    Yes, it is. But thats apple and oranges.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #98
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'll agree with this, with an exception to the tax thing... if they were "mad" about this, they would be hitting the dealers and cultivators with tax violations, and they are not.
    Look at how much they could make.
    Refocus the funds to stop the deadly drugs and dealers, and let the tax fund it!
    I think this approach would just about stop(slow it down) our drug problem.
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  9. #99
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    I will admit that I'd rather have M.J. legal than alcohol, and its such a petty crime anymore, they might as well tax the heck out of it and make some money... money to fight the drug war.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    So, you think crack towns would be nice? As long as drugs cost money, no matter if its cheap or not, there will be violence that goes along with it.

    Alcohol is legal... do you know how many violent crimes that alcohol plays a role in? Almost all... its drugs or alcohol. Any cop will tell you that 90% of their workload is alcohol related. If drugs were legal, that wouldn't change a damn thing except that it wouldn't be hidden as much.

    Drugs would take on the same role as alcohol, only the ingredient is far more powerful.
    Then again, maybe we can legalize it... then we really will have the zombie invasion we fantasize about.
    Alcohol does not CAUSE people to be violent. They're ALREADY violent.

    If the drugs were legal, as alcohol is, I suspect that the percentage of increase in violence resulting from drug intoxication would be....NONE, because those are the SAME people who are NOW using ALCOHOL as their excuse to get out of hand.

    The degree of violence in the drug TRADE, on the other hand, would be about the same as that in the alcohol TRADE......NONE.

    Food for thought, though......how many drunks have you had to rassle? Can't count 'em, can you? I know I can't.

    Now, how many potheads have you had to rassle? That's a bit easier, isn't it? A LOT easier for me......NONE, in 20 years.

    I'm NOT saying that drugs aren't a problem. They are ABSOLUTELY a problem for the people wasting their lives on them. I'm just saying it shouldn't be a GOVERNMENT problem, and therefore EVERYBODY'S problem, unless and until the drug user harms or threatens to harm another person or their property.......you know, the same way we deal with people who DON'T use drugs?

    Did alcohol use skyrocket when Prohibition ended?

  11. #101
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I will admit that I'd rather have M.J. legal than alcohol, and its such a petty crime anymore, they might as well tax the heck out of it and make some money... money to fight the drug war.
    Huge +1 here. I've never mentioned my view on this issue before (this being a pretty conservative forum and myself a moderate/libertarian), but since The Great Sixto brought it up...
    In my opinion, spending resources to investigate, arrest & incarcerate stoners is not an effective use of funding or man hours. Except when young children are being exposed, I really don't believe pot users are harming anyone but themselves or negatively impacting society. Leave them alone and spend the resources on more serious crimes.
    Anyone that wants to pitch the "gateway drug" argument... Convince me that most kids don't try cigarettes or alcohol first.
    Regulating and taxing it (just like tobacco) would remove a large amount of money (and probably violence) from the gangs and drug runners that used to control the market. No doubt the government would come out with black in the books.

    Additionally, growing commercial (non-psychoactive) hemp for paper, fabric, etc... purposes could really ease the strain on our economy a bit - it's a much less expensive and faster-producing crop to grow than the traditional options.

    OK, back to topic...

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
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  12. #102
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    There was a guy that broke into a business downtown a couple of months ago. He was not a very good thief(some one saw him go in), this was his 50TH something charge

    He has been caught more then 20 times(theft, drug pos,assault,) and had a knife with him at the time.
    We have to figure away to deal with these repeat offenders.
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  13. #103
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    And that brings us to the million-dollar question: is it any more a problem than alcohol was during the era of Prohibition? It's an off-hand way of asking "Is containment worth it," or "Would legalizing drugs knock society down?"


    -B
    Legalize M.J., free up the money Lock people up for good who cook poison in a shed!!
    Keep the cocaine and heroin out.
    People are going to use drugs, stop funding the opium and cocaine trade!!!
    Tax M.J. to pay for border security,(agents, fence) there walking in here with people,drugs and whatever else they want to bring with them.
    Leaving with cash and guns! We have no Idea exactly who is here, or how many.
    Give our farmers the crop that makes more money a year then corn!!!
    Sorry, the whole war on drugs is a joke, take there money away from them!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  14. #104
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    Facts: The narco-cartels are an established vertical monopoly.

    They can produce and transport drugs cheaper than any legal producer could, even given the risks in the current enforcement environment.

    They don't have to tack on the price of US taxes, standards of labor, or purity/"safety" standards the US would enforce on legal cocaine/heroin production.

    Most users can't use these drugs without becoming addicted.

    Addicts will buy the cheapest substance available.

    Most addicts will eventually be unable to support themselves and will by necessity turn to crime to get their drugs by stealing them or stealing the get the money to buy them. Drug users neglect and/or abandon families. This has a damaging effect on our communities and affects us all. Drug abuse is not a simple matter of one person ruining his own life.

    Drug use is and will remain concentrated in our poorest areas...yet we're going to tax the drugs and essentially exploit these vulnerable areas as a nation?

    Question: Could American agriculture even support the growing of the coca plants and poppies, or would we still be sending money to South America and central Asia for the raw materials for these legal drugs?

    Mind you, I think marijuana should be legalized, since it's no worse or possibly better for some than alcohol; it can also be produced without the cartels. Narcotics and cocaine should not be.

  15. #105
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    I think the people wanting to legalize drugs do not understand the devastating effects drugs have on families and society.

    Obviously, drugs do not cause violent crime but they are almost always in the equation. Legalizing marijuana will hardly stop violent crime; it won't even make a dent. What it will do is legitimatize a destructive influence. I am also surprised that the libertarians want to use the argument the government should tax and regulate marijuana as if there is a need to justify their argument.

    Then there is the argument that marijuana should be legalized but not heroin, cocaine, crack, meth. Why not? It is exactly the same argument. Legalize cocaine and you stop the black market traficking. We can stop the meth labs if we let the government regulate it and sell it at the grocery store! But some people recognize that crack and heroin are harmful so those should be illegal. Guess what? Marijuana is harmful, too. Insidiously so. The fact that marijuana is illegal is a detterent to its use.

    Lastly, the argument that marijuana is no worse than alcohol is pure sophistry. Justifying one bad behavior by pointing to another is disingenuous. I think we all recognize alcohol is bad and its use causes traffic deaths, domestic violence and a host of societal problems. Yes, alcohol is legal but that doesn't make it something that should be encouraged. It is illegal for anyone under the age of 21 to drink. I wonder why that is...As a society we decided that kids are harmed by alcohol use. Adults are, too. Why would anyone want to open up a brand new vice that harms society? Because someone likes to get stoned? And they think it doesn't harm others (the libertarian mantra.) Marijuana use definitely harms society and should remain illegal.

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