OKC police chief wants tighter gun laws

This is a discussion on OKC police chief wants tighter gun laws within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; By Associated Press 6/2/2008 2:47 PM OKLAHOMA CITY -- Police Chief Bill Citty called Monday for tighter gun control laws to curb the kind of ...

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    Angry OKC police chief wants tighter gun laws

    By Associated Press
    6/2/2008 2:47 PM

    OKLAHOMA CITY -- Police Chief Bill Citty called Monday for tighter gun control laws to curb the kind of gang violence that left six teenagers with gunshot wounds following a drive-by shooting in southeast Oklahoma City two days earlier.

    Citty, speaking at a news conference by a coalition of social services, clergy and community groups opposed to gang violence, said he believes in a citizen's right to carry firearms but that too many guns are reaching the hands of gang members. He said gang members and their victims are getting younger and younger.

    "There has to be some tighter rules and regulations on the sale of firearms and the registration of those firearms," Citty said.

    Read the rest here (linked from NRA-ILA Website):
    Tulsa World: OKC police chief wants tighter gun laws


    Don't control the gang members, control the law abiding...yada, yada, yada.
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    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    Has anybody ever systematically analyzed the path guns take until they are used in a crime? Did they initially get purchased legally but later stolen? Did they get purchased in violation of existing gun laws? Who would be a neutral source of such data (probably not NRA.. nor would they actually have the data).

    I know years ago there was a statistic about top gun dealers who sold guns later used in crimes. But I haven't seen any recent data like that.

    IMHO, any attempt to solve the problem has to start with good numbers, not with anecdotal evidence.
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)

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    Another political hack panders to his audience. Citty has to know that gang bangers do not get guns from guns stores and pawn shops. They get them through theft and from of the street. 20 years ago the OKC police refused to believe that they had a budding gang problem: So they did nothing to head it off.


    Citty, speaking at a news conference by a coalition of social services, clergy and community groups opposed to gang violence, said he believes in a citizen's right to carry firearms but that too many guns are reaching the hands of gang members. He said gang members and their victims are getting younger and younger.

    "There has to be some tighter rules and regulations on the sale of firearms and the registration of those firearms," Citty said.

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    How about some tighter GANG control?? I wonder if this guy seriously believes gangbangers are going to pay heed to tighter gun control laws.

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    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    Actually just found a reasonably recent ATF statistic. While the numbers are not huge (so there is some room for error), the by far largest number of guns (about 50%) seems to come from straw purchases.

    One part of it that surprised me a bit: The number of guns stolen from authorized gun stores and gun owners is about the same (about 10% each). I guess if they rob a gun store, they get a lot more guns while individual gun owners loose them one at a time.
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    How about some tighter GANG control?? I wonder if this guy seriously believes gangbangers are going to pay heed to tighter gun control laws.

    +1

    Biker

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    Another political hack panders to his audience. Citty has to know that gang bangers do not get guns from guns stores and pawn shops. They get them through theft and from of the street...
    Agreed.

    Funny thing about this subject is that stolen guns, they come from us.
    The street they get their guns from us too be it by 'straw purchases', or complicit unlawful acting shops be they pawn and pro gun shops who make sales to said persons and groups off book out the back door, as well as individuals selling privately 'face to face' to which in some cases (clearly not all) folks are making sales to persons who otherwise would not be able or lawful to purchase or even possess, or lawful above board gun shop sales to citizens who have known mental issues (see VT Tech shooter Cho or the recent guy in Seattle) but because these items by state are not reported or even tracked such sales slip through with no alert, or completely lawful citizens with no prior record who later flip their lid and act wrongly in direct usage.

    The latter is largely not possible to predict or prevent.
    But, the others are and from them guns as used in crime and crime trade are sourced.

    Now the funny thing about this from my own view toward the US and gunfu types at the inside such as this forum in specific is that we all despise crime and criminals with their in many places high criminal victimization rates. Everyone be they pro or anti gun largely feels same about this, with exception of criminals and their affiliates who support their activities and 'lifestyle'. More on that in a minute.
    But at the same time many folks, again to my view, talk out the side of their mouths toward this subject while in their own homes and by their own practices they do the exact same things as I've indicated above.

    They store their guns in their homes unlocked, which in many states is unlawful, and having them literally just lying about wherever kept in drawers, behind doors, inside car glove compartments and trunks or under if not on seats of vehicles left parked on streets or in their own driveway overnight, on or in counters toward easy access for anyone be it themselves, their children, or other people and their children as well as yep...criminals too.
    Everyone knows that burglary and theft of property including cars happens and as per the mantra here to anyone, anywhere, at any time.

    But these same people who do these unwise and criminal/crime enabling things will talk and bellyache to the high heavens about crime, criminality, and when a person gets shot at their local bank or mall or walking the streets or in their home by an attacker they will call for a toughening of crime related laws or enforcing of current laws.
    Well hello...what?!!?!

    Note my thread from a few days ago toward my visit to a home with my realtor and noting a gun cabinet that was left by the owner locked with the key in it. That home was unoccupied for hours (!) as the homeowners/s were away at work before I asked about it and my realtor called the sellers realtor to let her know we were on the way. She indicated that she'd meet us on site to show us around and she did just that to which I noted the gun cabinet in a poor point of placement and doubly standing with the key in the lock (!).
    In that thread others came in with commentary of why is that wrong?, what's wrong with that?, my grandpa made a rack eons ago with no locks and it's nice (!), and the usual it's not required by law in my state commentary.
    One does not jibe with the other.

    As we the people are entitled to keep and bear arms we also have a _responsibility_ toward doing so reasonably and wisely.
    Heck there have been many threads here toward persons who even feel using high powered rifles, high powered pistols (e.g. 10mm), and shotguns with slug rounds in their place of residence (house, townhouse, condo, apartment, cabin, tent, etc.) against potential attackers without concern or care for the related safety of their neighbors and persons down range beyond that of their intended target and outside their own generally easily perforated walls.
    But when the news story of the boy shot by a criminals round through two walls from a robbery across the street while the victim was seated at his piano with teacher doing his lessons, that story had all manner of commentary toward how criminals suck.

    We can't have it both ways.
    If we are to respect the 2A we are to as well on the individual level to respect each other without regard or even requirement of 'act right' laws.
    It's because people could not and have not acted right that laws come to be such as requirement to lock your guns up when not in use and to not leave them laying about the house and to not brandish your carried firearms in unlawful and unwise ways.
    Folks complain about this law and that law in regard to firearms but in some cases said laws actually do make sense, considering else wise how many people even amongst us here otherwise wish to and if left to their own devices will/do act unwisely...and even purposefully without regard for themselves or their neighbor, which is all of us.

    Crime and criminality as related to firearms are largely related back to we the people.
    It's well known and established that generally criminals including gang members (city, suburban, or rural) on the whole do not walk into gun shops and buy a pistol or shotgun to which they then following legal and lawful paperwork processing toward the purchase go out and rob 7-11s or pull off home invasions. Further these same criminals do not apply for licenses to carry and submit personal info and even fingerprint records et. al. as most of us have submitted to.
    They steal a gun from us where and when it's easy or they buy a gun through if not from us again where and when it's easy, and then they come back to prey on us where and when it's easy.
    We the people have to amongst ourselves make it less easy where and when we can which means at home and at our businesses as well as in our individual choice toward practices.
    Otherwise to ignore this and keep doing more of the same while expecting or hoping for a change in results to the positive is completely asinine and at that detrimental to us all whilst also being disingenuous.

    Personally I keep my stored firearms and ammunition locked.
    I carry same on my person using reasonable and safe methods, manners, and means of deployment (i.e. proper and specific holsters, mag carriers, and belts). Additionally I have taken the time to educate myself on laws for my area of residence and places where I am lawfully allowed by permit/license to carry (MA and VA both as resident status), and I've taken the time to learn how my arms work and how to apply them safely and equally importantly with proper judgment. Many of these things are not required by any specific law and to those that are I've by choice gone far above and beyond the minimums required.
    My motivation is not just to fit within and be lawful, but more importantly and dare I say selfishly I do these things to protect myself, my family, and by extension my neighbor. And by neighbor that does not exclusively mean just the people who live behind, to my side, or across the street.

    I'm sick of seeing all these reports about people being hurt or killed by criminals with guns. Guns largely secured by illegal means that at one time or another were to start purchased lawfully by a citizen...a neighbor to you, me, and we the people.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed.

    Funny thing about this subject is that stolen guns, they come from us.
    The street they get their guns from us too be it by 'straw purchases', or complicit unlawful acting shops be they pawn and pro gun shops who make sales to said persons and groups off book out the back door, as well as individuals selling privately 'face to face' to which in some cases (clearly not all) folks are making sales to persons who otherwise would not be able or lawful to purchase or even possess, or lawful above board gun shop sales to citizens who have known mental issues (see VT Tech shooter Cho or the recent guy in Seattle) but because these items by state are not reported or even tracked such sales slip through with no alert, or completely lawful citizens with no prior record who later flip their lid and act wrongly in direct usage.

    The latter is largely not possible to predict or prevent.
    But, the others are and from them guns as used in crime and crime trade are sourced.

    Now the funny thing about this from my own view toward the US and gunfu types at the inside such as this forum in specific is that we all despise crime and criminals with their in many places high criminal victimization rates. Everyone be they pro or anti gun largely feels same about this, with exception of criminals and their affiliates who support their activities and 'lifestyle'. More on that in a minute.
    But at the same time many folks, again to my view, talk out the side of their mouths toward this subject while in their own homes and by their own practices they do the exact same things as I've indicated above.

    They store their guns in their homes unlocked, which in many states is unlawful, and having them literally just lying about wherever kept in drawers, behind doors, inside car glove compartments and trunks or under if not on seats of vehicles left parked on streets or in their own driveway overnight, on or in counters toward easy access for anyone be it themselves, their children, or other people and their children as well as yep...criminals too.
    Everyone knows that burglary and theft of property including cars happens and as per the mantra here to anyone, anywhere, at any time.

    But these same people who do these unwise and criminal/crime enabling things will talk and bellyache to the high heavens about crime, criminality, and when a person gets shot at their local bank or mall or walking the streets or in their home by an attacker they will call for a toughening of crime related laws or enforcing of current laws.
    Well hello...what?!!?!

    Note my thread from a few days ago toward my visit to a home with my realtor and noting a gun cabinet that was left by the owner locked with the key in it. That home was unoccupied for hours (!) as the homeowners/s were away at work before I asked about it and my realtor called the sellers realtor to let her know we were on the way. She indicated that she'd meet us on site to show us around and she did just that to which I noted the gun cabinet in a poor point of placement and doubly standing with the key in the lock (!).
    In that thread others came in with commentary of why is that wrong?, what's wrong with that?, my grandpa made a rack eons ago with no locks and it's nice (!), and the usual it's not required by law in my state commentary.
    One does not jibe with the other.

    As we the people are entitled to keep and bear arms we also have a _responsibility_ toward doing so reasonably and wisely.
    Heck there have been many threads here toward persons who even feel using high powered rifles, high powered pistols (e.g. 10mm), and shotguns with slug rounds in their place of residence (house, townhouse, condo, apartment, cabin, tent, etc.) against potential attackers without concern or care for the related safety of their neighbors and persons down range beyond that of their intended target and outside their own generally easily perforated walls.
    But when the news story of the boy shot by a criminals round through two walls from a robbery across the street while the victim was seated at his piano with teacher doing his lessons, that story had all manner of commentary toward how criminals suck.

    We can't have it both ways.
    If we are to respect the 2A we are to as well on the individual level to respect each other without regard or even requirement of 'act right' laws.
    It's because people could not and have not acted right that laws come to be such as requirement to lock your guns up when not in use and to not leave them laying about the house and to not brandish your carried firearms in unlawful and unwise ways.
    Folks complain about this law and that law in regard to firearms but in some cases said laws actually do make sense, considering else wise how many people even amongst us here otherwise wish to and if left to their own devices will/do act unwisely...and even purposefully without regard for themselves or their neighbor, which is all of us.

    Crime and criminality as related to firearms are largely related back to we the people.
    It's well known and established that generally criminals including gang members (city, suburban, or rural) on the whole do not walk into gun shops and buy a pistol or shotgun to which they then following legal and lawful paperwork processing toward the purchase go out and rob 7-11s or pull off home invasions. Further these same criminals do not apply for licenses to carry and submit personal info and even fingerprint records et. al. as most of us have submitted to.
    They steal a gun from us where and when it's easy or they buy a gun through if not from us again where and when it's easy, and then they come back to prey on us where and when it's easy.
    We the people have to amongst ourselves make it less easy where and when we can which means at home and at our businesses as well as in our individual choice toward practices.
    Otherwise to ignore this and keep doing more of the same while expecting or hoping for a change in results to the positive is completely asinine and at that detrimental to us all whilst also being disingenuous.

    Personally I keep my stored firearms and ammunition locked.
    I carry same on my person using reasonable and safe methods, manners, and means of deployment (i.e. proper and specific holsters, mag carriers, and belts). Additionally I have taken the time to educate myself on laws for my area of residence and places where I am lawfully allowed by permit/license to carry (MA and VA both as resident status), and I've taken the time to learn how my arms work and how to apply them safely and equally importantly with proper judgment. Many of these things are not required by any specific law and to those that are I've by choice gone far above and beyond the minimums required.
    My motivation is not just to fit within and be lawful, but more importantly and dare I say selfishly I do these things to protect myself, my family, and by extension my neighbor. And by neighbor that does not exclusively mean just the people who live behind, to my side, or across the street.

    I'm sick of seeing all these reports about people being hurt or killed by criminals with guns. Guns largely secured by illegal means that at one time or another were to start purchased lawfully by a citizen...a neighbor to you, me, and we the people.

    - Janq
    Some good points made in the above quote, and certainly, we should all take good care of our arms and ammunition. Still, there seems to be no end these days to the excuses made for why a criminal does what a criminal does. I'm not prepared to add another excuse to the list by blaming the actions of a few murdering thieving -----s on careless homeowners/gunowners.

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    Don't punish me for having guns in my house...I SHOULD be able to store them on my kitchen table...if I choose to do so...
    OK, I should store them in a safe, but that should be MY option.

    Now, if you break into my house and steal my gun(s)..make that a crime for which you get 25 years, and you do ALL the time.

    It's criminal control...that's the entire solution...not gun control.

    The reason China has no drug crime to speak of, is that drug possession, use, or sale can get you the death penalty...people there know the penalty...few try to test it...those who do, don't get to test it 'twice'...
    I don't know what they do for an illegal gun...

    Stay armed...practice criminal control...stay safe!
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    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    I agree with Janq. Sure retsup, it is our choice to store our firearms securely. It is a choice we SHOULD make in order to help protect our rights, and keep yet another firearm out of the hands of a would-be murderer. Just think: if the original owner of the stolen Glock that is used to murder your daughter had only put that think in a safe, maybe she would not be murdered!

    Janq makes a good point. There is something to living within reality that we as gun owners and CCW permit holders should realize: we need to do be more responsible than the law requires us to be. On one hand we say there are too many laws, yet on the other hand we say we aren't required to act responsibly by the law, so why should we?

    We have to be better than that. See the truth for what it is. Help keep illegal guns off the streets by doing your part to ensure YOUR firearms don't become stolen, or misused by children etc. By doing so, you are helping to preserve our rights to keep and bear arms. Who cares if the law does not require you to do so???

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    I
    Janq makes a good point. There is something to living within reality that we as gun owners and CCW permit holders should realize: we need to do be more responsible than the law requires us to be. On one hand we say there are too many laws, yet on the other hand we say we aren't required to act responsibly by the law, so why should we?

    We have to be better than that. See the truth for what it is. Help keep illegal guns off the streets by doing your part to ensure YOUR firearms don't become stolen, or misused by children etc. By doing so, you are helping to preserve our rights to keep and bear arms. Who cares if the law does not require you to do so???
    I can visualize a scenario where a homeowner is sued by the family of the victim of a crime committed by someone who had stolen the homeowner's gun. This seems something akin to blaming a gunshop owner for crimes committed with guns sold at his shop. Without question, we should all be responsible for the safe storage of our guns but let's not take the tired old route of blaming someone else for the actions of a criminal.

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    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=retsupt99;743215]

    Don't punish me for having guns in my house...I SHOULD be able to store them on my kitchen table...if I choose to do so...

    OK, I should store them in a safe, but that should be MY option.

    Now, if you break into my house and steal my gun(s)..make that a crime for which you get 25 years, and you do ALL the time.

    It's criminal control...that's the entire solution...not gun control.


    QUOTE]

    I agree. Let's not blame the victim of the crime for the criminal act. "I'm sorry that you had all that money stolen Mr Smith, you really should have kept it in the bank".......?

    Next step, only people who own "approved safes" may own a firearm......? Nope, I'm not ready to go down that road.

    Let's keep the focus on the crooks that are breaking the laws that are already on the books.......not on those law abiding citizens that happen to become their victims.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    And that's the thing and my point Retsupt99.

    If only more people would _opt_ to do what they know they should do then we'd have far less of the problems and by direct relation secondary (post initial theft or unlawful sale) firearm related crimes and criminal victimization that we are and have been experiencing. And by that less calls for restriction, regulation, and removal of the rights we hold near and dear.
    With rights comes responsibility, hand in hand. So has been said at one time or another by just about every parent to most every child at one time or another. Or rather should, even as to do so is not _yet_ required in so many words by law.

    Honest I don't care if a person chooses to store their firearm on their kitchen table, in their sock drawer, or in a gun cabinet locked with the key in the lock, unlocked, or even with no means of security what so ever.
    Same as I generally don't care if one leaves the keys and their wallet in their car or their home doors open and unlocked (a home I visited yesterday was left in just such a condition front and rear doors literally open and unlocked with just the screen door closed...my realtor who knows the seller said they do this as a norm). That is their choice, their "option".
    But the thing is about firearms in specific that we all know good and well that crime does occur. Yes in a perfect non-existant world people would simply act right and would not break into other persons homes nor steal from them nor holdup pizza drivers nor rape, pillage, and murder.
    In the very much real world though, in America, this is not the case on the whole and very much not so in most regions with few notable and specific exceptions. And even amongst the exceptions the potential is always there and very real. See the recent gruesome crimes that have occurred in normally sleepy quiet towns within CT the past year where people were oft to say and think; 'Nothing ever happens here.'

    Accepting reality though for what it is as it is, ones choice to opt toward say securing their firearm properly as opposed to leaving it on their kitchen table is difficult if even possible to argue and support as being reasonable or responsible, or even neighborly.
    Especially considering that public safety is at hand and in a real way not just in the immediate, gun sitting on kitchen table unable on it's own to harm anyone without human interference and interface, but the larger picture of potential and again secondary results which sadly and unfortunately are all too common.
    And that's not to mention civil liability for damages that an owner might expose themself to beyond that of criminal responsibility be it by law direct (e.g. unlawful storage or child endangerment) or secondary such as how some states do relate these things in relation to criminal activity tracking back to who is the firearms rightful owner.
    I have even seen posts here in multiple threads by persons who have issue with law mandating reporting of a firearm that becomes lost or stolen. Why would that be a problem and something that one would not want to do? Even if there were no legal requirement to do so wouldn't one want to report at a minimum a loss or theft of their property? And the loss isn't a tea pot or shovel but a firearm?!?

    The whole thing is puzzling to me.

    Especially considering when these same persons indicate they are 'strong supporters' of pro-gun programs and initiatives including specifically the NRA who themselves as part of their own education programs teach and espouse the exact same things I'm saying here toward responsible and sensible ownership as well as handling of firearms.
    The NRA does not advise storage of a firearm on ones kitchen table, or gun cabinets locked with the key in the luck for anyone to turn and open, or firearms stored loaded and/or unlocked as being responsible, sensible, nor wise.
    They say so here; NRA Gun Safety Rules

    Very much puzzling.

    - Janq

    P.S. - Be clear, I am not excusing criminals for acting criminally be they breaking into homes to steal guns off kitchen tables or whatever. That is wrong, and also unwise. But we must recognize and not ignore that guns they don't just grow from trees and they are not made at home by crafty mechanically inclined criminals. These things come from somewhere and that where by and large starts with and ends with us.
    I personally do not wish to have me or my family endangered or directly victimized by a criminal wielding the firearm my 'neighbor' unwisely deemed reasonable and responsible to leave stored on his kitchen table or inside a gun cabinet locked with the key left in the lock for anyone with hands and opposable thumbs to very easily notice, turn, and access without authorization.
    Further I choose and opt not to do same because I do not want on my conscience, social record, or even worse a criminal record indicating that as related to my own choice and selected option my neighbor and/or his family suffered and unnecessarily so.

    "Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons." - The National Rifle Association, 'Education & Training Programs - NRA Gun Safety Rules'
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    And that's the thing and my point Retsupt99.



    Very much puzzling.

    - Janq
    There is no disputing the idea that gun owners should store and care for their guns responsibly. The rub would be if failure to do so, or the judgement that they had failed to do so somehow made them responsible for a shooting somewhere by a gangbanger who had broken in and stolen their guns. In fairness I don't think this is exactly what your post implied Janq, but it did seem to hint at.

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    There is no disputing the idea that gun owners should store and care for their guns responsibly. The rub would be if failure to do so, or the judgement that they had failed to do so somehow made them responsible for a shooting somewhere by a gangbanger who had broken in and stolen their guns. In fairness I don't think this is exactly what your post implied Janq, but it did seem to hint at.
    On the flip side...bar owners are held liable if they allow someone to become intoxicated and that person then drives, killing someone. I can see the same argument in a court of law being made with weapons...and losing.

    It is a viscous cycle...more violent crimes, more become armed to deter the crime...statistics bare this out. I think there is a real fear amongst the establishment of weapons out of control (regardless of the view that it is people that are out of control...because much easier to control the weapons then the people)

    Rick

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