NSA Surveillance Program - Page 2

NSA Surveillance Program

This is a discussion on NSA Surveillance Program within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I can see the need for this, that does not mean I approve of it. We are the enemy of a good portion of the ...

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Thread: NSA Surveillance Program

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I can see the need for this, that does not mean I approve of it. We are the enemy of a good portion of the World, and the rest simply like us because we can give them aid when needed.

    With that said I don't think not approving of this has anything to do with "being important enough to monitor" or even anyone possibly making calls to terrorist cells in international locations. I like the movie "Enemy of the State" for this very reason, yes it is a movie but unfortunatley I feel it is a very plausible scenario.

    As has been stated, the frog in the pot...

    When this country was founded you didn't need a license to carry a weapon or drive your buggy, but now we do. You didn't have to pay a toll of 2 shillings to go from one end of town to another on the new road, now that seems to be one of the most popular forms of taxation. In the past you had a prayer (quiet time) at the beginning of each school day, now people are getting tossed out or written up for bringing their own Bible to read during their free period.

    The Govt. doesn't take our liberties all at once, that would cause too much of an uproar. But if they do it one slice at a time, before you know it the whole cake is gone.

    My 2 cents...
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  2. #17
    Member Array Ten_Ring's Avatar
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    This has been going on for years..... it's just being put on paper now.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    when talking into you're tin can to you're buddy on the other end of the string make sure you can see the string to make sure somebody else hasn't tied another can to it
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    hmm...seems like those would forego liberty inorder for security deserve niether but beyond that qoute from Ben Franklin I can't say my honest opinion due to the forum rules :)

    does any facebook on here? Ron Paul groups?
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    when talking into you're tin can to you're buddy on the other end of the string make sure you can see the string to make sure somebody else hasn't tied another can to it
    That's funny right there!
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array mrreynolds's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Would they pause the recording during phone sex...this is critical I'm asking for a friend?

  7. #22
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentX View Post
    As they guy who's usually arguing on the side of the .gov, I do have to mention that I have a simple test for measuring my opinion of what the government is doing/can do. I call it the Nixon test. I ask, "What would Nixon have done with this power/ability/authority?" In this case, he could do a hell of a lot of bad stuff if he bent this to his political purposes, and that makes me much more leery than, say, a new kind of scanner in an airport.
    Nixon was villified beyond comprehension. His actions pale in comparison to the illegal activities of selling classified information to the Chinese, for example. Besides his wage/price controls, which are the mantra of liberals, he was an excellent President. He had the unfortunate problem of a democratic Congress and public opinion of the hippy generation that forced him to lose the Vietnam War, which subsequently caused the death of over a million innocent people.

    The misinformation concerning Nixon has poisoned a generation.

    As someone somewhat directly involved with national security issues sometimes related to collection, I really, really like that we have the ability to do a lot of the things we do, but I recognize that we as the United States simply must have clear boundaries, and may have to accept less than optimal ability to follow bad guys in order to preserve our own civil liberties. Being free means accepting risk on a certain front...so be it.
    I could not have said it better. "Being free means accepting risk on a certain front."

    The fact is that our surveillance programs have demonstrably made Americans safer. We have thwarted enemies, broken up terror cells, and stopped plans to attack America. This has been made public. As many of us are aware, the information made public is just the tip of the iceberg. Almost certainly, the Patriot Act has had many more successes appropriately kept secret from average citizens.

    And as much as so many complain about the loss of civil liberties, no one can come up with a single example of an innocent person abused by this necessary measure to help defend America.

    If you do not consort with terrorists or plan to do harm to America you will have no problem with the our intelligence gathering measures. If you plan to do harm to America then we have provided tools to find you quickly and put you in prison for a long time.

  8. #23
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    Doesn't bother me one bit...

    We lived in Adak, AK for 7 years...it was a military base and our phone calls were monitored all the time. We were not supposed to talk about military things at all...people were sometimes disconnected from phone calls if talking about anything taboo...

    Didn't bother us, didn't really think about it...was never disconnectd!

    I'm not planning any attacks on the U.S., nor do I make contacts with terrorists...they (Uncle Sam) can listen all day.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. But, at every turn, do every bit of evil possible, so long as (a) nobody sees, (b) nobody knows and (c) nobody finds out. And, if they do find out, (d) crush 'em in any suitable manner.

    Warrants are, of course, supposed to be the check and balance in a system with gross potential for abuse. Warrantless wiretapping allows surreptitious, unregulated and invasive breach of privacy in contravention to the Constitutional "protections" supposedly in place to protect all citizens.

    But giving a bye to corrupt commercial organizations for their criminal complicity in allowing such unconstitutional abuse on the part of official hacks (under threat of all sorts of force, no doubt) is simply unconscionable. The whole viper's nest should be lined up for traitors' punishment, the old-fashioned way.

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm not planning any attacks on the U.S., nor do I make contacts with terrorists...they (Uncle Sam) can listen all day.
    If history proves anything, non-planning guarantees nothing once attention is paid.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  10. #25
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Warrants are, of course, supposed to be the check and balance in a system with gross potential for abuse. Warrantless wiretapping allows surreptitious, unregulated and invasive breach of privacy in contravention to the Constitutional "protections" supposedly in place to protect all citizens.

    But giving a bye to corrupt commercial organizations for their criminal complicity in allowing such unconstitutional abuse on the part of official hacks (under threat of all sorts of force, no doubt) is simply unconscionable. The whole viper's nest should be lined up for traitors' punishment, the old-fashioned way.
    If I recall, the prohibition is against unreasonable search and seizure. Since when is listening to enemy communications unreasonable? This is the same mindset that wants to provide attorneys and US civilian courts to enemy captured on the battlefield.

    And certainly, the telephone companies should be immune from prosecution and civil liabilty for helping defend the United States at the request of the Commander-in-Chief.

    If history proves anything, non-planning guarantees nothing once attention is paid.
    Examples?

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Doesn't bother me one bit...

    We lived in Adak, AK for 7 years...it was a military base and our phone calls were monitored all the time. We were not supposed to talk about military things at all...people were sometimes disconnected from phone calls if talking about anything taboo...

    Didn't bother us, didn't really think about it...was never disconnectd!

    I'm not planning any attacks on the U.S., nor do I make contacts with terrorists...they (Uncle Sam) can listen all day.

    It is the principle of the thing, just because you, I and the vast majority of Americans out there have nothing to hide doesn't mean that we should allow ourselves to be checked and searched like criminals with something to hide!
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

  12. #27
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    The tenuous balance between individual liberties and national security. Always a push-pull, always changing, always difficult to assess.

    The politics are interesting, as always, and reflect strange undercurrents.

    Personally, my calls and e-mails are boring, some probably argue my posts likewise. But that really isn't the issue.........so go make your own decisions..........


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Since when is listening to enemy communications unreasonable?
    Never said enemy communications was an invalid target. I object to warrantless (therefore abused) invasions of privacy, in which no cause is force to be proven to a likely impartial third party.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    This is the same mindset that wants to provide attorneys and US civilian courts to enemy captured on the battlefield.
    My mindset isn't clear to this group, yet, as I haven't weighed in on the various facets of the questions involved. I've weighed in on one question only: the warrantless method of execution, which itself begs to be abused. I am not of the group claimed to have the mindset that tossing the baby out with the bathwater is a sensible policy. I AM, however, squarely in the camp that believes unmonitored government hacks will take an inch when given a mile. That is all I indicated.

    I absolutely don't object to finding the BG's and nailing their foreheads to the wall, when found. Please, don't twist what's said into broader generalizations that are patently false, prior to knowing the facts. I'm anti-abuse. I'm certainly not against crime fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    If history proves anything, non-planning guarantees nothing once attention is paid.
    Witness every character attack, whether oblique or direct, made on people from all quarters who loudly criticized the nefarious methods of the U.S. government through the years who were subsequently sent through the seive.

    Examples abound of folks who groused publicly about the warrantless wiretapping situation, specifically, who were then publicly attacked from the White House for their having dared question the sanity or legality of the methods. IIRC, the particular claims were, in most cases, that of lack of patriotism, at minimum, merely for daring to utter comments against the illegal methods. Techniques used were fairly similar to your oblique "mindset" claims, above, though far sharper and from the bully pulpit of the White House microphone.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  14. #29
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    If I recall, the prohibition is against unreasonable search and seizure. Since when is listening to enemy communications unreasonable? This is the same mindset that wants to provide attorneys and US civilian courts to enemy captured on the battlefield.

    And certainly, the telephone companies should be immune from prosecution and civil liabilty for helping defend the United States at the request of the Commander-in-Chief.

    [QUOTE}If history proves anything, non-planning guarantees nothing once attention is paid.
    Examples?
    Right, but what defines enemy communications? Seems to me they're listening to whatever they want of US communications and then deciding whether or not they're enemies? And exactly who keeps them in check?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Doesn't bother me one bit...

    We lived in Adak, AK for 7 years...it was a military base and our phone calls were monitored all the time. We were not supposed to talk about military things at all...people were sometimes disconnected from phone calls if talking about anything taboo...

    Didn't bother us, didn't really think about it...was never disconnectd!

    I'm not planning any attacks on the U.S., nor do I make contacts with terrorists...they (Uncle Sam) can listen all day.
    So if you WERE NOT carrying WMD's lets say...internally where they don't belong(how exactly can one word that without getting kicked), then you wouldn't mind if they had "in-processing" stations set up at every other street corner just like a jail-house and randomly selecting folks walking by for "internal probing" to search for said WMD's that may or may not exist up there in the chance that you just might be a terrorist trying to blow yourself up in a crowded place?

    Same old tired argument..."I don't have anything to hide so they can search all day long".
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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