Tactical Observations from a Grunt in Iraq - Page 2

Tactical Observations from a Grunt in Iraq

This is a discussion on Tactical Observations from a Grunt in Iraq within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; P95--That's why to this day to the consternation of all those liberals like George Looney-Clooney we've never signed the Landmine treaty. CLAYMORES RULE! Liberals drool....

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    P95--That's why to this day to the consternation of all those liberals like George Looney-Clooney we've never signed the Landmine treaty.

    CLAYMORES RULE! Liberals drool.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array dpesec's Avatar
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    Chris,
    I heard through the rumor mill that HPs were now being used because the Tangos are not covered under any convention.

    I don't know how true it is. Gen. Patton used to say something like - war is making some other poor ba*tard give his life for his country.

    What ever it takes. Let's face it, the tangos in Iraq don't treat their prisoners according to the POW convention.
    Dave

    “The highest obligation and privilege of citizenship is that of bearing arms”. General George Patton—US Army

    Vis et Veneratio

    "So this is how democracy dies: to thunderous applause." Actress Natalie Portman as Padme in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array dpesec's Avatar
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    Ibex,
    Love you sig line. When my GF and I saw that movie, I thought we're seeing that happen right now in the US.
    Dave

    “The highest obligation and privilege of citizenship is that of bearing arms”. General George Patton—US Army

    Vis et Veneratio

    "So this is how democracy dies: to thunderous applause." Actress Natalie Portman as Padme in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

  4. #19
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    GREAT POST!!!
    History reveils the AK47 works VERY well.
    The m60 has always been a workhorse in my books, as the Ma Deuce is awsome as well for taking down cinder blocks and killing BGs.
    The Old slabsides are still used by the Spec ops guys
    Then again, an airstrike, utilizing Nape, along with 20 and 30 Mike Mikes is ALWAYS a crowd pleaser for sure..Kills EVERYTHING it touches.. anybody up for a Good 'ol fashon BBQ?
    Personally, I'm a huge fan of the "nuke em til they glow" crowd

    Now, where's "Puff and Spookie" I kinda like that Idea myself

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Technically the .50BMG according to the Geneva Convention (I spit upon it AND the entire UN) cannot be used against personnel. It is for vehicles and equipment.
    You're correct, I'd forgotten that little "rule".

    For years our soldiers have wisely maintained that it's been the equipment at which they aimed.....I was aiming for his helmet.... or His AK was pointed at my position so I tried to shoot it out of his hands!
    Of course we would never break the convention!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  6. #21
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    Thanks dpesec. Best line of the movie. Loved how the whole trilogy illustrated the erosion of liberty into tyranny.

    But what was that stuff about firearms being "uncivilized"? :chairshot
    "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."
    - Senator Padmé Amidala, "Revenge of the Sith"

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Technically the .50BMG according to the Geneva Convention (I spit upon it AND the entire UN) cannot be used against personnel. It is for vehicles and equipment.[/I]

    Let's pretend I am from Miissouri and *show me* where it says this in the text of the Geneva/Hague Conventions. I heard this same bit of false information by word-of-mouth while serving in the Marine Corps, but a quick net search and reading of the results mentions NOTHING about it being illegal to use a .50 cal weapon on personnel. If that were true, Carlos Hathcock would/should have been prosecuted when he shot a VC soldier with an M-2 from over 2500 yards away.


    Links:

    https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/signpubs/r5121a.pdf

    http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/0/1d1726...6?OpenDocument

    http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm
    Last edited by BushidoMarine; November 12th, 2005 at 05:10 PM.
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
    - Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

  8. #23
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    If that were true, Carlos Hathcock would/should have been prosecuted when he shot a VC soldier with an M-2 from over 2500 years away.
    Bushido - that puts Hathcock's achievements around 495 BC! LOL!

    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  9. #24
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    Question Sniping is MURDER

    Quote Originally Posted by BushidoMarine
    Let's pretend I am from Miissouri and *show me* where it says this in the text of the Geneva/Hague Conventions. I heard this same bit of false information by word-of-mouth while serving in the Marine Corps, but a quick net search and reading of the results mentions NOTHING about it being illegal to use a .50 cal weapon on personel. If that were true, Carlos Hathcock would/should have been prosecuted when he shot a VC soldier with an M-2 from over 2500 years away.
    You know, a LOT of stuff went on in that stupid war that was illegal under the laws of land warfare not to mention blatant violations of common sense...kinda like the oxymoron Military Intelligence. I can only say that when we got our official briefings in the classroom at IOBC by a JAG Lawyer this was in our notes. That was June 1980. We always took THAT as gospel...and every post where I ever went, both active and reserve in the next 14 yrs that was the gospel.... again .... with a wink and a nod.... Did you search under the UCMJ? I think that's where you'd likely find it....But I ain't lookin.' It really doesn't matter to me at this stage of my life! LOL
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Bushido - that puts Hathcock's achievements around 495 BC! LOL!



    Hey, Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock was THE BEST, period! No target was safe from him, whether seperated by several hundred yards, or several hundred centuries!



    It really doesn't matter to me at this stage of my life! LOL
    Indeed, although I *am* toying with the idea of going back in the Reserves, which could result in me getting to go play in the big sandbox. In that case it *would* matter...lol

    I think the "can't shoot troops with a .50" is a military urban legend of sorts...bad info being passed unquestioningly from one troop to the next. As shown in the original post, good ol' Ma Duece is still a crowd pleaser when you absolutely, positively gots to kill every last er..."mischevious fellow" in the entire city..accept no substitute! :D

    6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater."
    ...and most coveted in my meager collection of "in-extremis personal conflict management resolution devices"!
    Last edited by BushidoMarine; November 12th, 2005 at 05:33 PM.
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
    - Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

  11. #26
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    Bushidomarine, I think you're right. Check out this link:
    http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/smallarms/Parks.pdf
    If the International Red Cross Committee isn't addressing any other .50 caliber rounds than the Norwegian multi purpose round, then it's probably nothing but an urban legend. If they thought that the .50 caliber FMJ round was a breach of whatever convention they would have played it for whatever it's worth.
    I just had a flashback; several years ago I had the great fortune of firing 30 rounds of .50 caliber multipurpose ammunition into a discarded truck on a military firing range. Pheew!!! I know that some of you probably consider me some kind of a pervo for that, but I don't really care.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BushidoMarine


    Hey, Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock was THE BEST, period! No target was safe from him, whether seperated by several hundred yards, or several hundred centuries!





    Indeed, although I *am* toying with the idea of going back in the Reserves, which could result in me getting to go play in the big sandbox. In that case it *would* matter...lol

    I think the "can't shoot troops with a .50" is a military urban legend of sorts...bad info being passed unquestioningly from one troop to the next. As shown in the original post, good ol' Ma Duece is still a crowd pleaser when you absolutely, positively gots to kill every last er..."mischevious fellow" in the entire city..accept no substitute! :D



    ...and most coveted in my meager collection of "in-extremis personal conflict management resolution devices"!
    Just like one of these little gems BushidoMarine?
    I have one!!
    Attached Images
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

  13. #28
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    Personally, I have my doubts on the e-mails authenticity.

    Love this guys rebuttal,

    Not here too....
    Well it's pretty full of inaccuracies and misinformation.


    Subject: Great info from Iraq


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because its lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where is a Marine getting experience with the M4? They are very limited in the Corps with the only large number in use with Force Recon units and Det-1. Both units use the M4A1. Most of the rest of the Corps is using the M16A4.

    The reports coming out of Iraq actually read this way with regards to reliability:

    The M16 series received widespread praise for its durability and reliability. A few soldiers expressed a desire to be able to fire the weapon after pulling it out of the dirt (“like you can do with the AK” was the perception), but there were no trends of poor reliability. This may be attributed in part to the ease of maintenance reported by the soldiers. While keeping the weapons clean in this environment was a continuous requirement it was not considered to be a difficult one.



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here we go again....."Stopping power is such a subjective thing. This is from the PM Soldier Assessment Team Report:
    It is apparent that the close range lethality deficiency of the 5.56mm (M855) is more a matter of perception rather than fact, but there were some exceptions. The majority of the soldiers interviewed that voiced or desired “better knock-down power” or a larger caliber bullet did not have actual close engagements. Those that had close engagements and applied Close Quarters Battle (CQB) tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) – controlled pairs in the lethal areas: chest and head and good shot placement, defeated the target without issue. Most that had to engage a target repeatedly remarked that they hit the target in non-vital areas such as the extremities. Some targets were reportedly hit in the chest numerous times, but required at least one shot to the head to defeat it. No lethality issues were voiced with targets engaged at 200 meters and beyond. It is apparent that with proper shot placement and marksmanship training, the M855 ammunition is lethal in close and long range. And a bit more on lethality:

    Discussion: There have been many engagements with the M855 spanning ranges from 10 feet to 250 meters against soft targets (non-armored individuals) during OIF. Observations from the field cover many different responses from “I shot him in the gut and he ran away”, “I had to put multiple rounds in him to stop him”, to “I shot him in the chest and he went down” and “I shot him in the head and he dropped on the spot”. There are many different views on the lethality of this round ranging from the need for a heavier bullet (the need for more stopping power), to “We have no complaints with the M855 ammunition. It is satisfying the operational need.” One brigade of soldiers interviewed made a very interesting statement concerning the lethality of the M855. Their focus groups indicated that based on proper target acquisition with the improved M68 (CCO), shot placement, basic rifle marksmanship, and firing controlled pairs they were very satisfied with the round’s performance/ terminal effects.

    Recommendations: A Government Lethality IPT has been stood up to standardize GEL block testing and an engineering study will be conducted extensive, soft target terminal effects of COTS and military 5.56mm ammunition. The characteristics of each bullet terminal performance will be determined. Based on requirements and using the engineering information, a new round should be type classified and made available. The complete report is available here:
    http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have heard nothing about random autopsies on insurgents. I rather doubt that this is happening due to considerations for the perceptions of the Iraqi people. There would be a huge outcry not only on Al Jezerra but in our press that we were "mutilating" the enemy dead....



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ????. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that fun in the middle of a firefight).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First off, it's the M249 SAW and it's not drum fed. It's belt fed. Granted, the plastic box magazines the 200 rd belts come in, could be mistaken for a drum magazine by someone who had never seen one before, but I would think that a Marine would know the nomenclature of this weapon. Also most units are buying the nylon bags to carry the belts in because they don't rattle and fall off like the plastic box magazines,



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well the M9 has had all kinds of problems with the aftermarket magaines the military is buying, but the author leaves this out. It's been documented in many offical AARs that the Checkmate brand magazines are junk, yet they haven't been recalled and soldiers and Marines are still having problems with them.



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Marines are using the Benelli 1014 shotgun. They may still field the Mossberg in some quantity. Hate to bust the author's bubble, but shotguns are used to breech. With the restrictive rules of engagement, rifles and precise shooting is the order of the day for clearing operations. Buckshot and slugs are hard to aquire in country and I have a friend who said they used birdshot to scare people who approached too close to convoys.



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Army and Marines have used the M240 for years. It's the standard platoon level machine gun. They don't have to dismount them from the vehicles. The dismount kits for the M240 thats the coax gun in the Abrams and Bradley is very hard to come by. If they dismounted the M240 from the turret, it's most likely unusable in a ground mount role.



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. Ma deuce is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

    7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put em down with a torso hit.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Force Recon and Det 1 are the Marine units carrying .45s. There are couple Army units that don't really exist using 1911 types and Glock 19s.



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The special ops guys are using SIGs (Navy Special Warfare), M9s (Army, Air Force), MEUSOC 1911 (USMC Force Recon), Kimber 1911 (USMC Det 1) Various 1911s and Glock 19s (unnamed Army SOF). As a side note Springfield Armory was recently given a contract to build the new MEUSOC pistol.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The old government model .45s are being re-issued en masse.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not true at all.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again not true. Some units are using modified M14s with commercial aftermarket stocks, but they are not being issued in bulk. None of the aftermarket stocks currently in use is made of kevlar.



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A single shot even from a .50 BMG isn't enough to stop a vehicle. Machine guns, especially the M2 are most used to stop car bombs. They are used to remotely detonate IEDs that are discovered and you'll find a lot of them in the hands of EOD.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcocks record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Marines don't use the M24. They use the M40, the current iteration being the M40A3. No M24s are fielded in 300 Winchester Magnum, even though they are built on the Remington long action to make this possible.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We only wish it weighed 6 pounds. The IBAS with SAPI plates weighs in at just under 16 pounds and when you add in the neck, shoulder and groin protection you're back up over 20 pounds.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, its the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I can't help but notice the author doesn't know squat about our current weapons and how they are employed. It seems to me that this is another missive written to justify someones personal opinions about what weapons our troops should be issued.

    Bad guy weapons:


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1) Mostly AK47s . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .308 Russian???? Who makes that? Is it a cusotm loading? How come the Iraqi insurgents don't use the more common 7.62x39 round? Saddam must have left tons of it stockpiled around the country. That would greatly simplify their logistics...........



    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordans area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The enemy didn't use 155mm howitzers...perhaps the author means 152mm??

    It's been awhile since I've seen something this full of misinformation spread across the internet. I notice that these reports from the front always seem to come from a Marine. Every Marine or former Marine I've been privileged to know or serve with no matter what his rank, knew more basic information about his weapons then whoever wrote this.

    Jeff
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  14. #29
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    This 'report' is getting some attention. While my S2 isn't flawless...I've heard a weapon manufacturer's rep speak of it (as it supports the use of the .45).

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    Cool Pervo? LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenrunner
    I just had a flashback; several years ago I had the great fortune of firing 30 rounds of .50 caliber multipurpose ammunition into a discarded truck on a military firing range. Pheew!!! I know that some of you probably consider me some kind of a pervo for that, but I don't really care.
    If you think that's "bad" when I was a Screwey Looie (2LT) on active duty we ran a live fire TOW range with warshot ammo; one benefit of being in a unit with the RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) at the time. More training $$$.

    The target was an old M113 about a thousand meters downrange. Remember those old M113's had a feature that allowed them to manually "hand crank" the dismount ramp back into the "up" position? Well, a buddy of mine ('nother LT) found a steer running around loose on the range that probably got loose from some rancher in the area and he got this really neato idea: Herd the animal up that ramp and crank the ramp up ...and use the warshot to max advantage. You know....previous to this incident (1981) I really had never understood what the term shredded beef meant. It looked like somebody sprayed raw meat all over the interior. It was a sobering lesson, however.

    Yeah, it was reprehensible from a number of views: Waste of good steak; deprive the rancher of good money for his property; bad example for the troops....but we were young & dumb and that pretty well describes the life of a 2nd LT in general.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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