Illegal To Take Photo Of LEO In Tennessee? - Page 4

Illegal To Take Photo Of LEO In Tennessee?

This is a discussion on Illegal To Take Photo Of LEO In Tennessee? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Sixto, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel that, when I am in public acting in an ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Sixto,
    I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel that, when I am in public acting in an official capacity, I am subject to be photographed or recorded. As long as I am in a public place, I have no more expected right to privacy than any other citizen. I try to conduct myself accordingly. Again, as long as a person is not actively interfering with my investigation, my position and location make me subject to public scrutiny. It is something I accept as part of the job. When I was on patrol and working a DUI unit, I filmed DUI stops. Working in Intelligence, I have done video and photography at riots and protests (always in plain sight and always in something that clearly identifies me as a LEO). I cannot expect the citizens not to exercise the same rights.

    As for the UC stuff, please understand that I spent a good chunk of my career working dope. I understand how things work and I understand OPSEC/PERSEC. But what you do in public...you do in public. Therefore, you are subject to public scrutiny. I have been on more dope search warrants than I can count and I never wore a hood or a mask. Nobody on any of my teams ever did. Is it justifiable for a SWAT team who is going to deploy flashbangs or some sort of chemical substance to provide them actual physical protection? Yes, I would say so. Is it OK just to allow you UC's to "cuff-n-stuff" without getting burned. Again, this is just my opinion, but no...I don't think it is a good idea.

    I will never forget watching an episode of "COPS" where a PD was doing traffic stops following dope buy observations. The Officers were in unmarked cars, wearing plain clothes (along with a "Police" vest or a "Police" t-shirt) and wearing black ski-masks and hockey masks!!!! To me, that is a bigger danger to officer safety than showing my face.

    Six, I respect your opinion and experience immensely, but I disagree with you on this one.
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    Sixto,
    I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel that, when I am in public acting in an official capacity, I am subject to be photographed or recorded. As long as I am in a public place, I have no more expected right to privacy than any other citizen. I try to conduct myself accordingly. Again, as long as a person is not actively interfering with my investigation, my position and location make me subject to public scrutiny. It is something I accept as part of the job. When I was on patrol and working a DUI unit, I filmed DUI stops. Working in Intelligence, I have done video and photography at riots and protests (always in plain sight and always in something that clearly identifies me as a LEO). I cannot expect the citizens not to exercise the same rights.

    As for the UC stuff, please understand that I spent a good chunk of my career working dope. I understand how things work and I understand OPSEC/PERSEC. But what you do in public...you do in public. Therefore, you are subject to public scrutiny. I have been on more dope search warrants than I can count and I never wore a hood or a mask. Nobody on any of my teams ever did. Is it justifiable for a SWAT team who is going to deploy flashbangs or some sort of chemical substance to provide them actual physical protection? Yes, I would say so. Is it OK just to allow you UC's to "cuff-n-stuff" without getting burned. Again, this is just my opinion, but no...I don't think it is a good idea.

    I will never forget watching an episode of "COPS" where a PD was doing traffic stops following dope buy observations. The Officers were in unmarked cars, wearing plain clothes (along with a "Police" vest or a "Police" t-shirt) and wearing black ski-masks and hockey masks!!!! To me, that is a bigger danger to officer safety than showing my face.

    Six, I respect your opinion and experience immensely, but I disagree with you on this one.
    Gonzo
    We are in agreement about the photo thing Gonzo... I'm strictly talking about photos being taken for unlawful purpose. I know and agree with you about what you do in public...you do in public. There is no argument from me about that.
    The mask thing is a matter of tactical opinion, I see and understand your side of the argument too. Your needs and structure is different than mine, its a situational thing IMO.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    As an amateur photog I feel the need to share some resources with everyone reading this thread.

    Here is a half-way decent article to introduce you to photographic rights

    Here is a little bit more detail on photographic rights.

    What's important to take away from this discussion is the importance of intent.

    You can photograph children at the playground, even if they're not your children. But if you intend to use the photos for illegal purposes then the act of photographing them is illegal.

    It's the same for anyone else, not just LEO's. For whatever reason some States felt the courts were so egregiously misinterpreting cases before them, that they had to write a law clarifying that LEO's have the same protections you and I as private citizens do.

    They cannot be photographed when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. And you cannot photograph them with illegal intent, such as using the photograph to libel or slander them.
    Exactly the points I was trying to make, but you did a much better job in only one post.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #49
    JD
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    31 posts have been removed.

    If you don't have anything to contribute to the TOPIC of the thread, which just in case anyone forgot, is:

    Illegal To Take Photo Of LEO In Tennessee?



    Take the tit for tat urination matches elsewhere.

    Given the number of posts removed, not all members were notified of the removals, if you had a post disappear and would like a more detailed reason for it's removal, feel free to PM me.


    Carry on.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    They cannot be photographed when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
    I would think that if an LEO is on the job and interacting with the public, there shouldn't be an expectation of privacy.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  6. #51
    Member Array Arisin Wind's Avatar
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    I remember during the Virginia Tech shooting video of the police responding and the very overweight police officer running with his rifle. That video clip was played on the television news many times with comments about the officer's appearance.

    When out in public, there is no expectation of privacy. If the officer fears for his safety from people taking his picture he shouldn't leave his house.
    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. psalm22:11

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I would think that if an LEO is on the job and interacting with the public, there shouldn't be an expectation of privacy.
    That's correct, and I don't want my post to be taken to support the Officer's actions, thanks for pointing that out.

    A reasonable expectation of privacy might include: being inside your home, using a restroom (even a public one), using a changing booth at a clothes store, etc.

    The changing booths are interesting because live video is not verbotten, so someone can watch you but not record you... strange but true. Some states have fixed this.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    IMHO ( having read the story elsewhere and none of the comments here ) The disorderly charge will stand because a prosecutor can make much of the verbage ect.. leading up to the arrest . Reading all the supporting documentation that i have seen the " victom " or you may say " suspect " here did become disorderly rather than just stand calmly by his rights to photo . Imho a judge needs to find the " suspect " guilty of the charge of disorderly conduct , wave all fines , court costs , or incarceration and at the same time call for charges on the originating officer for something along the lines of misuse of public office . He would naturally have to recuse himself if and when charges are brought on the officer .

    I will now go back and read the thread , but i wanted to post an " uncolored " opinion from my take of the raw info i have before i read forum members comments . On questions of possible police mis conduct i try and do this as a former officer bringing to bear my training and experience on policing , If i see anything in comments that makes me change my mind i will post a follow up on just what and why .
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  9. #54
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Ok after reading the posts here is my ( somewhat ) promised follow up post .

    First off i stand by my original post . However i feel i should post some of my thoughts ( which are molded by experience ) on the entire subject of photography of " public persons " such as LE . Understand photography is a hobby of mine , and i spend my $$ frugally . I dont have a high end dlsr , but i do have a camera which can bring much smaller things than you want seen in your bedroom to basically full screen at over 200 yards . I take a lot of pics of wildlife which is why ( not that i need to justify owning an " assault camera " ) i own a high end digital . I have taken pics of local LE when they have no idea they are being photo'd ( on traffic stops as a matter of fact ) and they have asked for and got prints to put on the wall after i showed them the pics .

    Like Six i have worked multiple details being a road officer as well as an undercover officer , and the lead detective all at the same time . The local news agreed that it would not be in the " public interest " to film me and put me on tv as an identifiable person . So the most i have ever appeared is as a silliwet on a clip that made it to cnn ( pre msnbc or fox ) . Has my pic ever been public well heck yea , kinda like six i got sworn inn and a paper took a nice pic of me in a shiny new uniform in fact you can find it in the archives of several papers spread across a couple of states lol . However one and only one of my cases was a " neo nazi " who was involved in photography of young ladys , real young ladys and trading same . The postal service assisted and he got some time . He is now out but does not have any of his former materials ( we even raided his safe deposit box for photos or negatives , it was back in the far reaches of pre digital days ). Point is that the investigation took a predator off the street , and working with the postal inspector it took not only a few pedophiles off the street , but some folk who were arming up illegally for " ragnarok " and who would feel that 911 killed a lot of jews . From him we got both an insight and an intro . One bad placed pic could have killed the investigation and as a side effect killed me too . Between trips i was still the fella who investigated crimes , and due to the size of my agency i worked in uniform a lot . Now if you transport to today as an officer i would want to know just why you took my pic . However i would not demand you delete it . ( you have the right to take it , but i also can " contact to question " your behaver . again in this case the officer went too far imho . so did the cell phone genius. Not that he could not take the pic , but because he got " snotty " after he did so . Personally i put 8 folks in prison for murder alone , some got death , some got life , and one got insanity . The insane fella told me ( and he is right ) that he knows me and he knows where i will " run to " and when he gets out he will visit my daughter . IMHO he will , and imho she is prepared to just shoot the old perv . Point is as LE personal identification should be optional to the public , as long as the agency is honest . Dipshit is entirely dishonest with charges the a charge may stand . Back in my day i had to worry about news broadcasts not yutube lol . and the reporters would work with a fella if he talked to them .
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  10. #55
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Why Do They Put The (leo) Name On The Side Of Car????? That Is In Jacksonvill Fl. I Can Find Out Wear Any Off Them Live--sheriff Said Cummunity Relations Leo Not Happy About It !!!

  11. #56
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    Not so sure/ torts, not illegal acts

    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    And you cannot photograph them with illegal intent, such as using the photograph to libel or slander them.
    These are not illegal acts. Both are civil wrongs, torts.

    The only way it would be illegal is if photos were for the purpose of blackmail or distribution of inappropriate images; or similar crimes.

    Photographing someone with the intent of holding them up to ridicule is perfectly OK, especially if their behavior was in fact ridiculous.

    To stay on topic, 'cop picking nose in public.' (Which by the way I wish someone had not used as the core for such a serious discussion-- I find the example offensive and inherently anti-cop, and I am not in that camp.)

    If said cop was not picking his nose in public and the truth was bent, then you have slander or libel. And maybe deliberate infliction of emotional distress too.

    (Never remember which one requires publication.)

    Best bet in today's world. Every word you write, everything you do, will be seen by someone....and you can't even necessarily be sure your sweety isn't doing some amateur photography.

    So lead a good clean life and behave like your pastor tells you to.
    Last edited by Hopyard; July 16th, 2008 at 06:29 PM. Reason: spelling

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    These are not illegal acts. Both are civil wrongs, torts.
    I stand corrected.

    I threw out bad examples ... blackmail, extortion, etc. are correct.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  13. #58
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    The Amish don't like their photos taken. I took a photo of a Cop stuck in the ditch on I-80 in Nebraska back in the days of the 55 mph National Speed limit, back when was was about $1.00 per gallon.

    They were working a Speed Trap and doing U turns in the Median in early April. He was buried and I thought this was so funny I photographed it.

    Also I took a photo of a Securiity Guard or Police Man in front of a Bank in Colombia. I wanted a photo of his Impressive 12 GA with Buck Shot weapon.

    He was not too happy and was trying to tell me that I can't take photos due to security reasons. No Hables Espanol Perdón

  14. #59
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    I can't believe that there are so many here that are anxious to weigh in on an incident that they don't have all the facts on and presume wrongdoing by the officers. I have met only a couple of officers that were rude or overbearing in many decades. None of them caused me anything but passing annoyance. Mr. XXXXXXX's actions. (as described in the documents) seem to have been calculated to provoke the officer. I wonder just what he was expecting to accomplish. The documents say:

    WHILE WAITING FOR THE PAPERWORK A HUMMER CAME BY WENT 30 TO 40 YARDS PAST US AND TURNED AROUND. THE HUMMER CAME TO A DEAD STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD ROLLED DOWN THE WINDOW A(SIC) POINTED SOMETHING BLACK WITH A RED LIGHT, THIS OFFICER TURNED TO THE OTHER OFFICER TO PROTECT HIM AND SAID XXX, I THOUGHT HE WAS GOINT TO SHOOT US, THEN THE MAN SAID TO SMILE AS HE TOOK A PICTURE WITHOUT OUR CONSENT. THEN THE HUMMER WENT DOWN THE ROAD 30 TO 40 YARDS AND CAME BACK TOWARDS US. PATROLMAN XXXXXXXX AND MYSELF STOP THE VEHICLE TO CHECK. THIS OFFICER ASKED THE MALE SUBJECT TO HAND OVER THE CAMERA OR DELETE THE PICTURE. THE MALE SUBJECT STATED THAT HE WAS NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING AND GOT IRATE. THIS OFFICER ASKED THE MALE SUBJECT TO STEP OUT OF THE VEHILCE. THE MALE SUBJECT WAS STILL IRATE, CUSSING. THIS OFFICER ASKED FOR THE MALE SUBJECTS NAME HE STATED IT WAS XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. THIS OFFICER ASKED MR. XXXXXXX TO DELETE THE PICTURE AND QUIT MAKING IT WORSE. THIS OFFICER CHARGED MR. XXXXXXX WITH THE ABOVE CHARGES AND WAS TRANSPORTED TO THE JOHNSON COUNTY JAIL FOR BOOKING BY PATROLMAN XXXXXXXX.
    The person arrested here, the subject, as far as we know was not previously acquainted with the officer who had made a traffic stop or the persons in the vehicle that he stopped. What possible reason did the subject have to:

    pass the officers,
    stop,
    turn around,
    come back opposite the traffic stop,
    stop in the middle of the road,
    roll down the window,
    call out "smile,"
    drive off again a short distance,
    turn around (or back-up)
    and return to where the traffic stop was and was stopped by the officers.

    It seems to me that if you make a point of calling anyone out, LEO or not, you can expect consequences and deserve them.

    It occurs to me that the subject's actions were either personal (previous encounters with LE) and/or he needs some professional counseling sometime soon.
    "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G.K. Chesterton

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texian View Post
    I can't believe that there are so many here that are anxious to weigh in on an incident that they don't have all the facts on and presume wrongdoing by the officers. I have met only a couple of officers that were rude or overbearing in many decades. None of them caused me anything but passing annoyance. Mr. XXXXXXX's actions. (as described in the documents) seem to have been calculated to provoke the officer. I wonder just what he was expecting to accomplish. The documents say:



    The person arrested here, the subject, as far as we know was not previously acquainted with the officer who had made a traffic stop or the persons in the vehicle that he stopped. What possible reason did the subject have to:

    pass the officers,
    stop,
    turn around,
    come back opposite the traffic stop,
    stop in the middle of the road,
    roll down the window,
    call out "smile,"
    drive off again a short distance,
    turn around (or back-up)
    and return to where the traffic stop was and was stopped by the officers.

    It seems to me that if you make a point of calling anyone out, LEO or not, you can expect consequences and deserve them.

    It occurs to me that the subject's actions were either personal (previous encounters with LE) and/or he needs some professional counseling sometime soon.
    I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusions. He was in his rights to take their photo whether they liked it or not.

    Had they stopped him for a legitimate reason maybe things would have gone differently.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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