ATF Loses 76 guns

This is a discussion on ATF Loses 76 guns within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; the missing weapons will be replaced at our expense anyway. not a big deal to them....

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Thread: ATF Loses 76 guns

  1. #16
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    the missing weapons will be replaced at our expense anyway. not a big deal to them.
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  3. #17
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think this sort of stuff is leaked to the media and general public simply to infuriate us. They are in essence thumbing their noses at us taxpayers without so much as caring what kind of idiots this makes them out to be.

  4. #18
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    Maybe they went to that Brooklyn buyback for $200 a pop.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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  5. #19
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    How many guns does an "average" FFL holder deal with? A tiny, tiny fraction of what the BATFE deals with.

    Where does the FFL holder keep his guns? Are they spread all over the country (and the world), in the hands of individual employees? Are they transported, stored, used, transfered, and swapped out thousands of times a day?

    To compare the BATFE to an FFL holder is simply juvenile. I hope that those guilty of malfeasance are punished appropriately, and I hope that all of you screaming for blood get EXACTLY the same treatment from your bosses should you ever screw up.

    And while we're speaking of hypocrisy - how many here have raised holy heck over "biased, sensationalist media" reports when they go against our beliefs? How many are diving head first into that self-same sensationalism now, when it suits your purposes?

    Sigh.....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    How many guns does an "average" FFL holder deal with? A tiny, tiny fraction of what the BATFE deals with.

    Where does the FFL holder keep his guns? Are they spread all over the country (and the world), in the hands of individual employees? Are they transported, stored, used, transfered, and swapped out thousands of times a day?
    There is a double standard. The ATF is above the law. There are no penalties, etc for their mistakes. If it were a licensed FFL, they would be in jail. That is the comparison being made. For a government agency to lose something as serious as a firearm is plain inexcusable, same as it should be for the common man.

    Also, perhaps a quarter to a third of the ATF is actually armed and issued a weapon. Most ATF agents are merely inspectors that do not have one iota of arrest power. The agents that come and inspect me are "industry operations investigators". They are not issued a badge, they are not, issued a weapon, they are not authorized to carry a weapon. They are there to look at paperwork and leave. There are a lot of misconceptions that all ATF agents are armed and that is far from the truth.
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  7. #21
    Member Array dojpros's Avatar
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    An FFL who lost 76 guns with the volume that the ATF handles who not go to jail. Loss of license etc.-Yes. But jail would not even be on the table.

  8. #22
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    The problem here is that the BATFE is a huge agency with thousands of employees, not some Mom and Pop FFL holder. If you want to hold the individuals responsible for whatever they may have done wrong, I'm behind you 100%. To paint an organization of this size as inept, corrupt, or "above the law" is the same as saying that Coca Cola Inc. should be shut down because they can't account for a few cases of soda.

    Again, the only reason most are so up in arms is because they are ideologically opposed to much of what the BATFE does (as am I), not because they are actually worse than any other similar organization.

    For instance, I know of a Secret Service agent who left their pistol in the bathroom TWICE. Are they a bad agent, or is the USSS some maniacal, evil, incompetent ogre, desperate to destroy the world?

    I don't know how else to say it - but boy are (some of) you folks eager to cast the first stone...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I don't think that the comparision of Coke loosing a case of soda is even remotely the same as loosing laptops and guns. Coke is in the business of manufacturing, selling and delivering sodas. Yes, cases are going to go missing and get busted and other things. If you would like to compare Coke loosing a delivery truck, or a handheld scanner the delivery drivers use, that is probably a better annalogy. I am sure they don't loose too many trucks, but scanners are lost and many times the employees have to pay for them. They can't do their job without them.

    The BATFE is not in the business of doing anything besided enforcing regulations on others. They, aren't distributing laptops or firearms, these are the tools of the trade their employees use. How do their employees continue to do their job without their tools, or reporting that those tools are missing? When the employee goes to their boss and says, he I lost my gun or laptop or badge, isn't it recorded and followed up on? In the private sector it surely is.

    Their loss rate was twice as high as the DEA and FBI, that says something, especially for an agency who's task it is to enforce regulations on others.

    It found that ATF lost three times more weapons each month than it had in a similar 2002 audit by the Treasury Department, which used to oversee the agency. It also lost 50 times as many laptops as reported in the earlier audit.

    Things are not getting better.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Well, with all due respect, you are being that sloppy in your spelling and grammar right now. Not everyone is perfect, all the time, right?

    Secondly, since when do ATF agents not have to pay for guns and ammo? Certainly, they are issued duty weapons and ammo, as are almost all law enforcement officers - would you prefer it otherwise?

    Also - and please bear in mind that I am not excusing any malfeasance going on here - the military loses VASTLY more weapons and ammunition every year, but we don't hear everyone screaming about how bad/evil/corrupt/incompetent the military is... Because this is a group that most gun owners don't like, they (we) are oh-so-quick to jump on the bashing bandwagon.

    Find out what happened, make those that were negligent or grossly incompetent pay. To paint then entire government with the single brush of this one report is just silly.

    Glass houses, ladies and gentlemen. Lest you start thinking that you've never made a mistake.
    So how long have you worked for the ATF ?

    I think what most are saying is you can't expect to enforce on others what you can live up to yourself...
    People can be pushed just so far before they have had enough. This is only one screwup of the ATF's that is being scrutinized at this time because it has to do with WEAPONS.
    Personal attacks on someones grammar and spelling compared to losing weapons and laptops is like comparing apples to onions.
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  11. #25
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    I worked for the federal government for 9 years. It amuses me when people refer to the Government as if it were a sentient being. It is a bureaucracy of humans. Humans are very fallible. Remember the government is OF the people that must comply with regulations . It is a good bet that the count was off but not necessarily all were lost. If I had something of value from the government I had to account for it. There is not one entity to blame, although perhaps it is good to be angry at "something".
    Yoda, I am, yes.

  12. #26
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    "The BATFE is not in the business of doing anything besided enforcing regulations on others"

    The ATF is also in the business of putting violent felons in jail. Additionally, their penatration of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs is without equal in the LEO world.

  13. #27
    Member Array Schwebel's Avatar
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    I remember a while back when they did an inventory of the National Air Force Museum and they were missing several 50cal machine guns, pieces of the Wright Flyer and a whole Japanese Zero.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I worked for the federal government for 9 years. It amuses me when people refer to the Government as if it were a sentient being. It is a bureaucracy of humans. Humans are very fallible. Remember the government is OF the people that must comply with regulations . It is a good bet that the count was off but not necessarily all were lost. If I had something of value from the government I had to account for it. There is not one entity to blame, although perhaps it is good to be angry at "something".
    Lost or not they are still unaccounted for, if a sheriff deputy lost one gun only, an did not report it, do you not think he would be held responsible. Take away that this is the ATF, and yes to err is human but this is a large amount of public property and some of it happens to be weapons. This is not the first time on public record this has happened and we should collectively not ignore the problem. Every day people are held accountable for lost or stolen items at work, but they do not work for the public sector and the info is between the employer and employee. To excuse this behavior is to turn a blind eye. AND a government of the PEOPLE has to answer to the PEOPLE. Not trying to bend noses but it can't go both ways. If you are enforcing laws against the people you are not above them because you are the people.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  15. #29
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    Additionally, ATF employees did not report 13 of the 76 lost weapons, ........., to internal affairs as required.


    This is the part that bothers me.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    So how long have you worked for the ATF ?
    Did you actually read what I have written? Obviously not, or you wouldn't have written this...

    I do not work for the BATFE. I am ideologically opposed to much of the BATFE's mission. That doesn't mean that I am going to (hypocritically) jump on a sensationalized media story and start screaming bloody murder because some mistakes have been made in this huge organization.

    As for comparing spelling and grammar to lost equipment...I wasn't. I was pointing out that sometimes people are sloppy or hasty or don't (literally) dot their "i's" and cross their "t's." A clerical error is a clerical error, right?

    If this was your favorite, pet organization, would you be calling for blood quite so loudly? If it were you who had made the mistake? Many, many folks here have admitted to having a negligent discharge with a firearm in their lives - are you "zero tolerance because it involves weapons" folks going to snatch the guns from these fallible human beings, human beings who have made mistakes (arguably more dangerous than the ones the BATFE made) with firearms? Or can you admit that most of your ire is directed at the BATFE because they are the BATFE? I don't like them, as an organization, and I can admit that. I can also admit that we gun owners are often no better than the Brady Bunch at seizing a scrap of information and twisting it in all sorts of ways to fit our agendas....

    Fire away at me all you like - I won't condemn an organization of thousands (even though I don't like them) for the mistakes of a few. That's simply un-American.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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