Plan would dedicate 20,000 uniformed troops inside U.S. by 2011

This is a discussion on Plan would dedicate 20,000 uniformed troops inside U.S. by 2011 within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; As reported by the Washington Post:Last month, McHale said, authorities agreed to begin a $1.8 million pilot project funded by the Federal Emergency Management Agency ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    As reported by the Washington Post:Last month, McHale said, authorities agreed to begin a $1.8 million pilot project funded by the Federal Emergency Management Agency through which civilian authorities in five states could tap military planners to develop disaster response plans.
    And I'm sure this will be handled with all the courtesy and efficiency of the other FEMA operations we are all familiar with.


    The American Civil Liberties Union and the libertarian Cato Institute are troubled by what they consider an expansion of executive authority.

    Domestic emergency deployment may be "just the first example of a series of expansions in presidential and military authority," or even an increase in domestic surveillance, said Anna Christensen of the ACLU's National Security Project. And Cato Vice President Gene Healy warned of "a creeping militarization" of homeland security.

    "There's a notion that whenever there's an important problem, that the thing to do is to call in the boys in green," Healy said, "and that's at odds with our long-standing tradition of being wary of the use of standing armies to keep the peace."
    Wow, I actually agree with the ACLU here. Go figure. The government is using a crisis, or the threat of one, to further turn America into a military/police state.

    McHale stressed that the response units will be subject to the act, that only 8 percent of their personnel will be responsible for security and that their duties will be to protect the force, not other law enforcement. For decades, the military has assigned larger units to respond to civil disturbances, such as during the Los Angeles riot in 1992.
    Yup, and the income tax was only originally on the richest 1%, the Patriot Act would only be used against suspected terrorists, eminent domain only applied to roads and bridges, and yes, Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus.

    This is a terrible idea. It is a historical observation that people underestimate the cost of government action, whatever its perceived benefits.

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  3. #17
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolyat63 View Post
    Not at the soldiers but at the facade that was put up around the country. In an apples to apples comparison the security added by the soldiers at places like the airports were negligible compared to what the military presence at Kimpo, Rhein-Main, Narito, Charles DeGaulle etc...provides.

    Now when you juxtapose the two sides as an American I would prefer to pay for additional special police forces for this role rather than cross that line of having the military performing this role.
    Okay, I admit that I'm a bit burnt out today from studying, but I really don't understand what you're getting at. The military has done this sort of training since the 50s, so there's no expansion on Executive Branch powers, just better organizing what's already on the books. We're not talking about Mumbai-style attacks; the police are pretty effective at active-shooter stuff, especially since training for the first-responders who be meeting the threat head-on has been emphasized in the last several years. We're talking about IEDs, dirty bombs, nuclear explosions, attacks on the scale of 9/11 - "multiple, simultaneous mass casualty incidents." We're talking about things police simply are NOT equipped to handle, especially less-urban areas. They're taxed as it is, and you're suggesting the roll in how many more tasks into their portfolio? Let's be serious, now.

    I fail to see how this plan is remotely related to what happened in 'Jericho'. Then again, I didn't see any of the episodes after the first season ended.


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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Okay, I admit that I'm a bit burnt out today from studying, but I really don't understand what you're getting at. The military has done this sort of training since the 50s, so there's no expansion on Executive Branch powers, just better organizing what's already on the books. We're not talking about Mumbai-style attacks; the police are pretty effective at active-shooter stuff, especially since training for the first-responders who be meeting the threat head-on has been emphasized in the last several years. We're talking about IEDs, dirty bombs, nuclear explosions, attacks on the scale of 9/11 - "multiple, simultaneous mass casualty incidents." We're talking about things police simply are NOT equipped to handle, especially less-urban areas. They're taxed as it is, and you're suggesting the roll in how many more tasks into their portfolio? Let's be serious, now.

    I fail to see how this plan is remotely related to what happened in 'Jericho'. Then again, I didn't see any of the episodes after the first season ended.


    -B
    In response to the question you posed about being pissed. The reply I was trying to convey is that generally yes I was not happy when I went through the airports following those days when I saw troops that were not trained nor equipped for the duty they were being asked to perform. Now what is being proposed is to resolve that and it can be done. The airports I referred to are just a few of the international airports where I have passed. These troops were well equipped and it appeared they had a much keener sense of awareness then did the soldiers that were put out for the show of force. I agree that is about all we had and that is what made me angry not the soldiers. 20k additional federal police/DHS is better than blurring the line.

    I started not to make the reference to Jericho but it was in the vain to show an example. Bottom line we have checks and balances for a reason and the military answers to the executive branch. Operating on foreign land and very limited use in the US leaves a lot less room for negative actions against the republic.

    Before I take a flaming I do not intend this to be negative against the Guard, Reserve or regular military but just a fact. Even the 101st, 82nd or 10Mtn would not be well suited right out of the chute to do the duties described for this 20k person planned. This is one or two divisions of people. That is not an insignificant amount of troops.
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  5. #19
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    I don't like it either...more security for less freedom...we all lose.

    Let's be more like Switzerland and require all citizens to have guns at home...

    Make getting a CCW permit very easy...an armed society is a polite society.
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  6. #20
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    rolyat63, am I reading you right in that your primary beef is that these are 20,000 troops not equipped/prepared for what they're being trained for (hence you reference to the better prepared soldiers of other airports)? If so, I can agree with that. I don't personally like the idea of 20k additional federal employees, but maybe I'm just a stingy bastid (). The point is, military train for stuff like this for a reason: they have the resources and manpower available to be an effective force to counter the threats they're training for. Cops simply don't have the resources and manpower to deal with these sorts of threats, especially when local/state PDs are already overburdened in much of the country and the threats might be attacking the infrastructure that the cops rely on.

    Who do you propose would handle the normal affairs that police do if it's the police you want to respond to these threats instead of better equipped/trained military elements? LA SWAT is pretty good at what they do, I hear, but they seem to be busy all the time. I don't think criminals would take a day off just because there was an attack against our country.

    I don't think there's an easy answer to this. Keep in mind, though, that this is also just a plan. For now.


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  7. #21
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    I have never seen a more frightened and paranoid group of people in my life. The government is not out to get you. They are our representatives that we vote to office to perform a job guided by the Constitution.

    Article 4 Section 4

    The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

    It is absolutely appropriate that we use everything in our power to thwart and repel an enemy invasion AND domestic violence.

    I understand that Obama does not like parts of the Constitution. It appears that some here are in lock step with that mindset.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    rolyat63, am I reading you right in that your primary beef is that these are 20,000 troops not equipped/prepared for what they're being trained for (hence you reference to the better prepared soldiers of other airports)? If so, I can agree with that. I don't personally like the idea of 20k additional federal employees, but maybe I'm just a stingy bastid (). The point is, military train for stuff like this for a reason: they have the resources and manpower available to be an effective force to counter the threats they're training for. Cops simply don't have the resources and manpower to deal with these sorts of threats, especially when local/state PDs are already overburdened in much of the country and the threats might be attacking the infrastructure that the cops rely on.

    Who do you propose would handle the normal affairs that police do if it's the police you want to respond to these threats instead of better equipped/trained military elements? LA SWAT is pretty good at what they do, I hear, but they seem to be busy all the time. I don't think criminals would take a day off just because there was an attack against our country.

    I don't think there's an easy answer to this. Keep in mind, though, that this is also just a plan. For now.


    -B
    You are correct in your as primary response to your question. The period after 9/11 when the US soldiers (reserve and NG) were deployed is what I am referring to.

    The balance is that if they are making a plan to increase by nearly two divisions for this force my vote is this force should not be US Military. The National Guard are trained for riot control, civil disorder etc... All of the forces have evolved in this post 9/11 world. I'm in complete agreement with you in that they should be trained and equipped for their assignments. My beef is having the US Military police our country. If we are invaded then let them kill them all and let God sort them out. I assure you if we digress to the point of what we have seen with AQI, in the homeland then the dogs of war WILL be unleashed on them. We can get way down in the weeds on this but the kind of efficiency that can be gained from having the best prepared military policing your lot can only be gained from intelligence and intelligence gathering well there's a can worms... You can be assured the FISA court could not contain nor would the American people believe THEY personally were being spied on, rights squashed...
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  9. #23
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    Well, it gives the troops a duty station they won't have to deploy overseas from.

  10. #24
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    I have never seen a more frightened and paranoid group of people in my life.
    I understand that Obama does not like parts of the Constitution. It appears that some here are in lock step with that mindset.
    Self Defense, just because people dont worship the government like you or have blind faith in everything that the government does is no reason to put them in the same camp as Obama. Not only is it not smart, but it is insulting.
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  11. #25
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolyat63 View Post
    My beef is having the US Military police our country...
    I don't think anything in the article suggested that the military will be doing police functions, though.


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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Self Defense, just because people dont worship the government like you or have blind faith in everything that the government does is no reason to put them in the same camp as Obama. Not only is it not smart, but it is insulting.
    I don't mean to be insulting. Over 58 million people voted for Obama and his view of the world. Even some of our fellow members.

    And, no, I don't worship govenment. It is a necessary function for any civilization. I do, however, respect the Constitution. It is what defines us as a nation. I am certainly not afraid of government. Government is listening to Aunt Katie's apple pie recipe...Oh My! The military is actually performing its duty to protect the states...Outrageous!

    I know my support for the United States government appears to be in the minority here, but I will reference the Constitution and the Founders' intent to bring the discussion back to reality.

    Certainly, you support Article 4 Section 4, right?

  13. #27
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    Yes I do.

    Lets wait till we have a demonstrated threat though. When Obama pulls out of the Middle East and the terrorist idiots follow the troops over here, then, and only then will we need to hunt them down and exterminate them on a grand scale.

    As long as we are killing them in their yard, we wont have to kill them in ours.

    Until then, this is no more than the pot warming up to boil the frog.

    I know my support for the United States government appears to be in the minority here
    I dont think so.

    I think that your view and failure to see things as they are, instead of how they are suppose to be, is in the minority.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Lets wait till we have a demonstrated threat though. When Obama pulls out of the Middle East and the terrorist idiots follow the troops over here, then, and only then will we need to hunt them down and exterminate them on a grand scale.

    As long as we are killing them in their yard, we wont have to kill them in ours.
    The phrase "protect from invasion" implies a proactive and preemptive strategy. If we wait until they are here (and many have opined they are here already) we will be defensive and reactive. Perhaps this strategy is BECAUSE of the real possibility that Obama will withdraw.

    I think it is more the imagery than the reality hat scare many.

    I think that your view and failure to see things as they are, instead of how they are suppose to be, is in the minority.
    I think my view of the way things are rather than predicting outcomes that are remote and unsupported is in the minority.

    When we declare martial law, suspend elections, and round up and imprison dissenters then you might have a point. Until then, it is essentially benign groupthink, lathering people into an unnecessary frenzy.

  15. #29
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    I am absolutely a patriot, while only serving 9 years active duty in the USAF during the Reagon years, I realize I didn't finish out a retirement program. However, tears still well up in my eyes every time the National Anthem is sung.

    I have sworn, and still swear to uphold our Constitution. Therefore, I encourage us all (I know, I know - preachin' to the choir) to be armed!! This is the very reason Article II was part of the Bill of Rights. So that our government CANNOT turn against us.

    My fear is that if the Constitution is a "flawed" document as some upcoming leadership has been purported to have said, then using Military personnel on civilians (read that as non-terrorists) might not necessarily be unheard of.

    Paranoid? Yep, but better paranoid and wrong, than blind and wrong.
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  16. #30
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    Perhaps this strategy is BECAUSE of the real possibility that Obama will withdraw.
    You may be right about that.

    I think my view of the way things are rather than predicting outcomes that are remote and unsupported is in the minority.
    Perhaps.

    When we declare martial law, suspend elections, and round up and imprison dissenters then you might have a point. Until then, it is essentially benign groupthink, lathering people into an unnecessary frenzy.
    Lets hope that we never get to that. Since we no longer teach real history in the public schools, I'd be willing to bet that history will repeat itself here, just as it has everywhere else.

    As for the "unnecessary frenzy", as long as people are talking about it, thinking about it and aware of the potential, perhaps thinking people will forestall the inevitable.
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