LEO crash leads to a question. - Page 2

LEO crash leads to a question.

This is a discussion on LEO crash leads to a question. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by HotGuns Not only that, but unbuckling can and will foul a draw. When trying to execute a felony stop, you sure dont ...

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Not only that, but unbuckling can and will foul a draw. When trying to execute a felony stop, you sure dont want to have to deal with a fouled draw with all of the other stuff you have to worry about.
    Another thought entered my head.....yeah...I know, I know. If an LEO is in need of un-holstering the weapon to stop a threat, then imminent danger is perceived and deadly force would be necessary correct? The LEO is assumed to be driving a vehicle at the moment we are currently discussing here. The vehicle is the most readily available weapon at the time the way I see it.....can't you just step on the gas and run 'em down? Seems faster to me...if a BG jumps out of the car I was tailing, and comes back at me with a ready firearm, no way would I be thinking slam my vehicle in park, and jump out....for what? I'd duck, and put the pedal to the metal and introduce Mr Bumper to BG...and if BG made the big mistake of being between Mr Bumper and BG vehicle...well, no need to call a jury. Hey....you guys are there, and some of you are seasoned veterans. Would this not be a good, tactically sound decision? Stay buckled....mow 'em down when they pose a threat. I don't want to be an armchair quarterback...never had the idea I could be...but that's how I'm looking at it from where I sit. I also realize the average 2-ton patrol car has it's limitations.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    I flipped my Dodge Durango K-9 truck during a response to a foot pursuit. I was going about 60 MPH and hydroplaned. If I didn't have my belt on I would have easily been ejected. The torque was unreal, then I lost consciousness. Second Chance vest was significant in inury reduction as well.

    I wear a seatbelt and a vest all of the time.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  3. #18
    Member Array philman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    Many state seat belt laws exempt LEOs on-duty from the requirement to wear them.
    That's hilarious "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you" Or in this case, "I'm from the government, I'm here to set the proper example"
    I carry a gun for the same reason I own a smoke detector...I never, ever, plan on needing them...but if I do need them, and have them in a box...I won't be able to get to them for use fast enough.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    Ram Rod, you bring up some good points. I personally like the idea of running my car up alongside a fleeing BG and opening the door on him, just like in the movies, LOL. But, I think that a person would more than likely be able to get out of the way if he was trying to be run over. Plus they can move and shoot at the same time. Also, I think that the officer's car would be in park almost immediately when stopped (just about the time the BG starts opening the door), so in order to run over the BG they would have to shift back into drive. However, if that option was available to be, I'd take it.
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    I flipped my Dodge Durango K-9 truck during a response to a foot pursuit. I was going about 60 MPH and hydroplaned. If I didn't have my belt on I would have easily been ejected. The torque was unreal, then I lost consciousness. Second Chance vest was significant in inury reduction as well.

    I wear a seatbelt and a vest all of the time.
    If you don't mind me asking, how did your dog do in the accident?
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by philman View Post
    That's hilarious "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you" Or in this case, "I'm from the government, I'm here to set the proper example"
    Well, if Joe Blow wants to respond to shots fired calls, he can go ahead and take his seat belt off....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #22
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    The article didn't say whether or not the lady officer had both lights and sirens on--which might have prevented the wheelchair bound person from entering the road.

    I'm aware of one horrendous accident and pedestrian death because an officer was racing down a street without the siren--'cause it was 3 A.M. and didn't want to disturb people. Ever since, that has been one of my pet peeves, though I do understand that sometimes it is necessary respond without using the siren.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    If you don't mind me asking, how did your dog do in the accident?
    Gonzo
    He was in one side of a custom made two-dog kennel in the back of the truck. It was bolted down so it stayed put. I was unconscious for a bit and was extricated.

    From what I'm told my GSD was absolutely silent but moving around. The Police on scene were afraid to open the back, so another K-9 guy from my agency came out and removed him. He was unscathed.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    He was in one side of a custom made two-dog kennel in the back of the truck. It was bolted down so it stayed put. I was unconscious for a bit and was extricated.

    From what I'm told my GSD was absolutely silent but moving around. The Police on scene were afraid to open the back, so another K-9 guy from my agency came out and removed him. He was unscathed.
    Excellent. Glad to hear you both came out of it OK.
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  10. #25
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    Our department requires seat belts because it is state law, as well as an Accreditation Standard from VALEAC.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The article didn't say whether or not the lady officer had both lights and sirens on--which might have prevented the wheelchair bound person from entering the road.

    I'm aware of one horrendous accident and pedestrian death because an officer was racing down a street without the siren--'cause it was 3 A.M. and didn't want to disturb people. Ever since, that has been one of my pet peeves, though I do understand that sometimes it is necessary respond without using the siren.
    Sometimes LEO and FD avoid using their sirens as well because people do some stupid stuff when the sirens come on.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Well, if Joe Blow wants to respond to shots fired calls, he can go ahead and take his seat belt off....
    No, responding to shots fired has zero to do with it. Unless there is an exemption in the law, LEO have no right to break it, plain and simple. If it were that important, the State law enforcement agencies would have had an exemption placed in the law.

    That's part of whats wrong with our system, a person in government thinks he or she is above the laws. If this law is OK to break, then were do you draw the line? Who decided where the line is draw?

    To be very blunt, I have been in this business long enough to know (not in Law Enforcement but worked closely with them for 30 years) that those who think they are above the law or the rules (including safety rules), have reason to break the law, think way to much of themselves and think they are doing something more important than the rest of us.

    A good example of this would be simple reflective vests, its a rule in my department and the same police department any time you function on the highway. Those who break the rule think that for some reason a driver sees them better than the rest of us, simply because they are important, it does not work that way, neither do seatbelts. The fact that a police officer is responding to shots fired has nothing to do with the legal requirement that you wear a seatbelt.

    Ok, off the soap box, have at it
    Last edited by HotGuns; December 28th, 2008 at 02:20 PM. Reason: spelling
    I carry a gun for the same reason I own a smoke detector...I never, ever, plan on needing them...but if I do need them, and have them in a box...I won't be able to get to them for use fast enough.

  13. #28
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    If you can't see that police and fire/rescue folks need to break some "laws" in order to properly do their jobs, then I don't know what to tell you. I certainly hope that the ambulance doesn't strictly obey the speed limit, wait at all reds, come to complete stops at all signs, yield right of way to other motorists at merges, etc when you're suffering the heart attack brought on by worrying so much about what other folks are 'getting away with.'
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    If you can't see that police and fire/rescue folks need to break some "laws" in order to properly do their jobs, then I don't know what to tell you. I certainly hope that the ambulance doesn't strictly obey the speed limit, wait at all reds, come to complete stops at all signs, yield right of way to other motorists at merges, etc when you're suffering the heart attack brought on by worrying so much about what other folks are 'getting away with.'
    The lights and sirens are not an excuse to break the law. We are trained to treat them as request for the right ao way. We are also told if we break the speed limit or any other traffic law and something happens (accident and such) then we are liable for our actions.

  15. #30
    Member Array philman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    If you can't see that police and fire/rescue folks need to break some "laws" in order to properly do their jobs, then I don't know what to tell you. I certainly hope that the ambulance doesn't strictly obey the speed limit, wait at all reds, come to complete stops at all signs, yield right of way to other motorists at merges, etc when you're suffering the heart attack brought on by worrying so much about what other folks are 'getting away with.'
    I've been n the business for over 30 years. I guarantee you that you do not need to break the law to get the job done, I 100% know this for a fact.

    Speed limit, wait at all reds, come to complete stops at all signs, yield right of way to other motorists at merges are ALL covered as exceptions in the law. Thus it is not breaking the law at all.

    This whole conversation was based on someone say that their police department allows them to break the law and not wear seatbelts. That in my professional opinion is a police department asking to be sued by any number of people involved in a pending tragedy. This all based on the concept that the single second it would take to unhook the safety device takes too long.

    Here is another good point to ponder, if there are set safety guidelines in place (seatbelt laws being one of them), many workers comp agencies would or may deny a person's entire claim of injury (including all medical fees), up to and including a disability pension if you break such safety guidelines. If for no other reason than that, I would always wear a seat belt because I want to provide as much protect for my family as I can.
    I carry a gun for the same reason I own a smoke detector...I never, ever, plan on needing them...but if I do need them, and have them in a box...I won't be able to get to them for use fast enough.

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