LEO crash leads to a question.

This is a discussion on LEO crash leads to a question. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by concealed The lights and sirens are not an excuse to break the law. We are trained to treat them as request for ...

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Thread: LEO crash leads to a question.

  1. #31
    Member Array philman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concealed View Post
    The lights and sirens are not an excuse to break the law. We are trained to treat them as request for the right ao way. We are also told if we break the speed limit or any other traffic law and something happens (accident and such) then we are liable for our actions.
    Our policy is 10 MPH over posted in good conditions. Traffic, poor weather, etc. all trump that policy. Negative right of ways also require a full stop, and no less than 25 mph top speed. Crossing a red light (you have the red) is considered a negative right of way. This of course is a department policy, not state law.

    I guess my final comment to all of you, again having been in this business for over 30 years. If you see a police office, ambulance, or fire truck violating these types of generally accepted guidelines, they are risking the lives of your loved ones, for what in the end makes little difference in response time. Now that may not seem that high on your list, but some day it may be at the top of your list, which would then be an unfortunate set of events.

    There are plenty of studies that prove that response times are only minimally impacted by such guidelines, that is why every police and fire department in the country that is worth its grain of salt has such policies. Seatbelts included.
    I carry a gun for the same reason I own a smoke detector...I never, ever, plan on needing them...but if I do need them, and have them in a box...I won't be able to get to them for use fast enough.

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  3. #32
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    This of course is a department policy
    And the policys are different every where you go. What flys in one, may not fly in another.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    And the policys are different every where you go. What flys in one, may not fly in another.
    I don't agree, law enforcement is the same for all practical purposes everywhere, none of the policies can or should justify violating a state law. My comments are based on nationally recognized safe practices adopted by all the national organizations (for both police and fire), they are not typically regional (at least in the context of this thread).

    If a law needs to be changed to accommodate law enforcement than it should be rewritten. I think it would be silly, but as long as the state law exempt LE from wearing seat belts, then have at, it no longer violates a law.

    In addition, our policies are more restrictive than the law. Other people have posted policies that approve violating laws, that's ridiculous and I would be more than happy to tell the Police Chief who approved the policy, particularly if my tax dollars paid his salary.
    I carry a gun for the same reason I own a smoke detector...I never, ever, plan on needing them...but if I do need them, and have them in a box...I won't be able to get to them for use fast enough.

  5. #34
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    I don't agree, law enforcement is the same for all practical purposes everywhere (at least in the context of this thread), none of the policies can or should justify violating state law.
    It doesn't matter if you agree or not. It is what it is.

    No one here is advocating breaking the law. I'd be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find any policy from any agency that violates any of the law,especially with the amount of lawyering that goes on even in a simple case.

    Law Enforcement in this state is vastly different even from one dept to another. As with most states, Leo's have specific exemptions that apply in performance with their duties.

    Remember that you are looking at things from the Ohio point of view. That is one state. There are 49 other states. Some may do things the same, but most don't. What may be illegal there in your state, may be perfectly legal in another state.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  6. #35
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    Ohio state law is written that way, emergency vehicles and buses are exempt.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    It doesn't matter if you agree or not. It is what it is.

    No one here is advocating breaking the law. I'd be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find any policy from any agency that violates any of the law,especially with the amount of lawyering that goes on even in a simple case.

    Law Enforcement in this state is vastly different even from one dept to another. As with most states, Leo's have specific exemptions that apply in performance with their duties.

    Remember that you are looking at things from the Ohio point of view. That is one state. There are 49 other states. Some may do things the same, but most don't. What may be illegal there in your state, may be perfectly legal in another state.
    OK, I must have misread the posts.
    I carry a gun for the same reason I own a smoke detector...I never, ever, plan on needing them...but if I do need them, and have them in a box...I won't be able to get to them for use fast enough.

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    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    It's too bad city and states don't pony up the bucks for body cages in police cars .This is a small investment that would save lives.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Not trying to start any argument here, but if your state law makes seat belt use mandatory, then there really isn't any question. Being a LEO does not exempt you from following that law.
    If it is the law and you are injured, you are screwed. You are not entitled to workmans comp, and insurance does not have to pay, due to your negligence.

    Often overlooked is the fact that the belt can be tested for stress indicators to determine if it was or was not being worn at the time of impact.

    The benefits of wearing the belt far outweigh any drawbacks. You don't give a second thought to retention devices on your holster hindering your draw so why worry about a seat belt hindering your egress from the vehicle?

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRI View Post
    Often overlooked is the fact that the belt can be tested for stress indicators to determine if it was or was not being worn at the time of impact.

    The benefits of wearing the belt far outweigh any drawbacks. You don't give a second thought to retention devices on your holster hindering your draw so why worry about a seat belt hindering your egress from the vehicle?
    Um, my holsters have no retention devices, except for the drop-leg and I don't get much use out of that (and I removed a secondary "safety" device from that one).

    In any case, I don't think anyone has said that they simply DON'T wear their seat belt. There are certain occasions, however, for certain people, where wearing the belt can cause more problems than it solves...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Um, my holsters have no retention devices, except for the drop-leg and I don't get much use out of that (and I removed a secondary "safety" device from that one).
    Opfor, I believe jri was referring to LEO. Military and Police are 2 entirely different worlds. Even military police are far different from LEO. I am not surprised that your military holsters don't have retention devices. I have seen very few military personnel wearing holsters like that, however I have seen a few here and there. However, most Law Enforcement Patrol Officers, do use holsters with these safeguards. Comparing the two is like comparing a HMMWV to a Patrol car.

    Having said that, I work with LEO almost daily, and I have yet to drive with a LEO who doesn't wear a seatbelt while on simple patrol.
    Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

  13. #42
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    Thoughts on the subject. AK has exemptions for many traffic laws for LEO. Every officer I have worked with has had a firm rule of wear the seatbelt at anything faster than about 15 or so MPH, idea is if you are going to fast to immediately stop and exit then you have time to disengage the seatbelt while coming to a stop - it is common practice to disengage the seatbelt when entering any area where the car could be boxed in or only has one exit - Car as a coffin theory is scary - I would much rather go down fighting on my feet than found in my car with my seatbelt caught around my holster.

    If your state law has the exemptions then use them to your advantage - but you are doing the public a disservice if you are not wearing your seat belt while driving at anything over ohhh say 25ish MPH. LEO are accountable to the public they serve
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaystekan View Post
    Opfor, I believe jri was referring to LEO. Military and Police are 2 entirely different worlds. Even military police are far different from LEO. I am not surprised that your military holsters don't have retention devices. I have seen very few military personnel wearing holsters like that, however I have seen a few here and there. However, most Law Enforcement Patrol Officers, do use holsters with these safeguards. Comparing the two is like comparing a HMMWV to a Patrol car.

    Having said that, I work with LEO almost daily, and I have yet to drive with a LEO who doesn't wear a seatbelt while on simple patrol.
    I am an LEO - I am "once and future" military. The issued military holsters are/were absolute crap; I never used mine outside the parade field. What I do at the moment is more military than cop, but I still don't use any retention devices on my duty holsters - concealment is my primary retention device.

    Also, doing what I do right now (High Threat Protection in Baghdad, in "low-profile" vehicles) I spend a lot of time in cars, with a lot of gear on. Seat belts are not worn by most of the guys on my team, because the chances of attack while in the vehicles is very high, and we have to be able to get out immediately to fight our way off the X or otherwise deal with the situation (burning car, whatever). All that said - moving without a seat belt still makes me nervous as hell, considering the absolute lack of traffic laws, street lights, local driving skills, and any sort of common courtesy when driving. So far, I have been attacked more often than I have been in a car accident, so the belt is usually off - but I don't like it.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The article didn't say whether or not the lady officer had both lights and sirens on--which might have prevented the wheelchair bound person from entering the road.

    I'm aware of one horrendous accident and pedestrian death because an officer was racing down a street without the siren--'cause it was 3 A.M. and didn't want to disturb people. Ever since, that has been one of my pet peeves, though I do understand that sometimes it is necessary respond without using the siren.
    Her lights and siren were on....

    The article states, "Ferri, responding to the call, was driving on Homestead Road near Andros Street with her vehicle's lights and sirens on when 66-year-old James C. Kane of Lehigh Acres, using a wheelchair, crossed the road ahead of her, according to a Florida Highway Patrol report."
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaystekan View Post
    Opfor, I believe jri was referring to LEO. Military and Police are 2 entirely different worlds. Even military police are far different from LEO. I am not surprised that your military holsters don't have retention devices. I have seen very few military personnel wearing holsters like that, however I have seen a few here and there. However, most Law Enforcement Patrol Officers, do use holsters with these safeguards. Comparing the two is like comparing a HMMWV to a Patrol car.

    Having said that, I work with LEO almost daily, and I have yet to drive with a LEO who doesn't wear a seatbelt while on simple patrol.



    Military Police use drop down leg holsters and they do have retention devices. They have a thumb guard and a device that goes over the gun while in the holster ( not sure of what it is called at the moment)
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