MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations - Page 5

MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations

This is a discussion on MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Miggy Actually not quite true. They might be ruthless but they ain't stupid. A concerted effort against them might send them running ...

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Thread: MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Actually not quite true. They might be ruthless but they ain't stupid. A concerted effort against them might send them running for greener pastures like NY or San Fran. Once you have them convinced that you can be as bad as them or even worse if they screw with you or your family, they will respect you and leave you alone.
    What concerted effort would that be?


  2. #62
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    First: Don't pull a Kitty Genovese. The rest falls in place.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  3. #63
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    Thumbs down MS13 "Respects" their Enemy and Retreats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Actually not quite true. They might be ruthless but they ain't stupid. A concerted effort against them might send them running for greener pastures like NY or San Fran. Once you have them convinced that you can be as bad as them or even worse if they screw with you or your family, they will respect you and leave you alone.

    Miggy, I don't think so! These animals have to keep their "face" on the street. If they lose "face" they lose a LOT. The most important thing I learned in college with a degree in criminal justice is that modern youth gangs bear zero resemblance to their 1950's predcessors and they will not back down, ever. This fact was reinforced when I was a Parole Officer right here in the State of Florida back in the 1980s. I got the word literally straight from the source! That was the start of the really violent youth gangs as a phenomena nationwide. Along with the national concept of the outlaw motorcycle gang with different "chapters" in different areas.

    These aren't disadvantaged youth trying to survive on the mean streets. They are cold blooded killers who will kill for money, for drugs or just because they don't like you. Many probably qualify as sociopaths. When was the last time you heard of a sociopath gaining "respect" for a declared enemy and just going elsewhere?

    To the contrary, my guess is that given a reason to focus on a specific target, especially when it springs from the ranks of people they consider to be their "prey" they would focus all personnel assets down to the last man to maintain their status of fear in the rest of the flock.

    These animals don't care about dying or being hurt or being arrested. They don't care because it is a daily part of life for them. It's casual. Is it casual for one of us as normal citizens? Of course not. Do we casually place the lives of those we love in the line of fire? Of course not. At least I don't. Are we willing to place our families in the middle of actual combat or the potential for such conditions everytime we step foot outside our homes? That's the lifestyle you take on when you inject yourself into this group's path. My name ain't MACK BOLAN if you remember that series of books from the 70's.

    I think that your statement that they're not stupid to be a little bit off kilter. They have street smarts and they're cunning. But they're not rocket scientists, either. Most are dropouts or never went to school. I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY they are capable of the critical thinking skills to work out a problem and then foresee long term consequences. Otherwise, they wouldn't be leading the life they lead.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #64
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    Ex,
    That pretty much agrees with everything I read or heard about MS13. Part of the problem is they won't give up, quit, nor forgive. They aggressively avenge/defend any and every offense and don't seem to mind the costs.

    They will be a handful for the authorities to deal with, and a civilian's worse nightmare if he has to confront them.

  5. #65
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    So, we cower and run inside our houses and pray we don't have to deal with them? 'Cause you know Police is not gonna be able to do squat against them. If they commit a crime or murder somebody and you happen to witness it, you won't testify in court 'cause you are scared for yourself and your family and the cops have no case. In the meantime, they get bigger and bolder, more violent and some politico comes along and blames it on the guns you carry and sweeping legislation passes and now you become the victim you did not want to become.

    The most important thing I learned in college with a degree in criminal justice is that modern youth gangs bear zero resemblance to their 1950's predcessors and they will not back down, ever.
    The most important thing I learned when I lived almost 30 years among people like them is that they are petrified when someone faces them on their terms and behaves like he has nothing left to lose. Oh yes, my experience doesn't come from some expert paper from some Washington Think Tank. I lived right smack among 15 year olds with a Hi Power in their waistbands and at least 4 cold blooded murders on their backs. I saw them selling dope and paying off cops and took victims on my own cars to the nearest ER because no ambulance would come in my neighborhood. And I could regale you with stories that would straight your curly hair and curl your straight ones but I'll save it. Just know, they can be beaten but not by not caring or being willing to take a chance.

    One more point, right ow in your minds is the seed of doubt. Your train of thought now includes the fear of retaliation to a family member if you happen to kill an MS13 member. How effective do you think you will be if, you happen to be attacked, that seed gets in the way of how you should respond to an inminent threat? You are just giving your adversay a humongous chance to win and you get killed. So who will care for you family after you failed to care for yourself? Isn't that a failure to protect them also?
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  6. #66
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    Miggy,
    Nobody is suggesting that we "...we cower and run inside our houses ...". Theoretically at least, we plan, and then do what we have to, to protect ourselves and our families. On the other hand, it would seem a mistake to lump MS-13 in with all the other gangs and their behavior.

    This is not a shoot'em and they go away situation. We must consider possiblities that if we have made an enemy of MS-13, especially as a civilian, they will come after us and our family.

    For example, how would you like to live under the constant threat that MS-13 might attack your home some time in the next 6 months? How can you defend yourself against them?

    Consider that if someone had killed one or more of your family and you didn't care anything about the law, etc. And you knew who did it and where they lived, do you think there would be anything that person could do to protect themselves from you if you were determined to kill them for what they did to your family? Now multiply yourself by ten (or more) in a "concerted" attack.

    The point is, you can get on the wrong side of these guys by just looking at them. Then if the situation escalates...

  7. #67
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    Ex... Well said.

    Also note that it really isn't that difficult to track someone down through the internet. Posting pictures of yourself. Talking about the community you live in makes you vulnerable. It's not that hard to connect the dots. Just something to think about.

    'Bad elements' check out online forums too.
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  8. #68
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    Thumbs up Bullseye, Tangle!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Miggy,
    Nobody is suggesting that we "...we cower and run inside our houses ...". Theoretically at least, we plan, and then do what we have to, to protect ourselves and our families. On the other hand, it would seem a mistake to lump MS-13 in with all the other gangs and their behavior.

    This is not a shoot'em and they go away situation. We must consider possiblities that if we have made an enemy of MS-13, especially as a civilian, they will come after us and our family.

    For example, how would you like to live under the constant threat that MS-13 might attack your home some time in the next 6 months? How can you defend yourself against them?

    Consider that if someone had killed one or more of your family and you didn't care anything about the law, etc. And you knew who did it and where they lived, do you think there would be anything that person could do to protect themselves from you if you were determined to kill them for what they did to your family? Now multiply yourself by ten (or more) in a "concerted" attack.

    The point is, you can get on the wrong side of these guys by just looking at them. Then if the situation escalates...
    Exactly my point, Tangle! Nobody on this forum who considers themselves a sheepdog will stop being a sheepdog. But as you said, it's a mistake to lump MS13 in with the other gangs. I could say more, but I would just be restating you and I couldn't do a better job.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #69
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    Well, much like our general border issue, this is fairly clearcut: MS-13 is a standing army, on US soil. They participate in numerous activities (all covered under RICO), to finance training and weaponry to establish a force to ensure their continued ability to generate revenue. No-brainer. An Executive Order could easily make it literally open season on anyone with 13 id'ers. But. Political will. Whole other issue.

    As to the shoot/no-shoot question: you do what you have to do to walk away today. Honestly, surviving long-term after such an incident would involve some illegal acts- but not impossible ones. Not something to delve into, at the moment.

    Again, like our southern border: unfortunately many people will have to die in spectacular fasion, before something is done.

  10. #70
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    I had a dream a couple of years ago, that my home city was being infested with illegal alien gangs. Actually, it starts with 3 Mexicans, attempting a home invasion, and are shot dead by the owner. But their friends move in, looking for vengeance and burn the city to the ground. When the dust settles and order is restored the mayor at a press conference says it all started with 3 Mexicans.
    This is something I could write a book, or make a movie about.

  11. #71
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    Gentlemen, I do hear you but what I do not hear is a course of action or a solution coming from your side of the field. You are not willing to face them or bear witness to their actions so, what's left?
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shekkian
    When the dust settles and order is restored the mayor at a press conference says it all started with 3 Mexicans.
    This is something I could write a book, or make a movie about.

    It's been done. Starred Antonio Banderas with that nifty little guitar case combo rocket launcher.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #73
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    What course of action or solution for a CCW type is there other than education, awareness and training? Why would I go out of my way to 'face them' or 'bear witness to their actions'?
    Are you asking what would be done if they were operating next door?
    I'd move. My family is more important to me than bumping chests.
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  14. #74
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    What I'm saying is the first line of defense is avoid:

    If we're sitting in a resturant and we see some of these types come in, it would be wise to quitely leave and don't make unnecessary eye contact with them, just get out as quickly and as low profile as possible.

    If you can't get out, don't push, e.g. if they come over and say you're sitting at their table, apologize and move to another table, or even better leave instead of going to another table.

    If they appear to be about to stab, shoot, or beat someone (other than yourself or loved one) execute your pre-determined course of action, which should be avoid, exit, and call the police.

    The course of action depends upon the individual and the circumstances, but it would seem to me that where some might intervene on the behalf of someone else, intervening in an MS13 situation may just focus their violence on others, including you and your family.

    The point is, unless one is willing to take the risk of having a violent, relentless, ruthless, no backing down, take no apologies gang after you and your family and neighbors, one needs to avoid any kind of confrontation with these guys and gals.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    It's been done. Starred Antonio Banderas with that nifty little guitar case combo rocket launcher.
    And eventually the support of Salma Hayek.
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

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