MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations

This is a discussion on MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Miggy Gentlemen, I do hear you but what I do not hear is a course of action or a solution coming from ...

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Thread: MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Unhappy Bigger than my pay grade

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Gentlemen, I do hear you but what I do not hear is a course of action or a solution coming from your side of the field. You are not willing to face them or bear witness to their actions so, what's left?
    The solution to a national problem lies not with individuals but with government. That's why the concept of federalism was developed to begin with. There are not enough of a concentration of sheepdogs to handle a problem of this magnitude. Also, our culture is breeding too many sheep. We call them....nope I'm not going to rip open THAT can of worms again! Anyway, you get the government you deserve.

    That's the solution: Politicians grow a spine, pass the legislation and modify the military rules of engagement to cover border protection and this problem will slowly taper off. MS13 should be declared a national threat and they should be rounded up and summarily deported. The next time they show up they should be delivered directly to the Salvadoran government. Didn't I hear somebody say they would be simply shot out of hand there?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    The solution to a national problem lies not with individuals but with government.
    I am with the Government and I am here to help you.

    That scares me as much as MS13.

    Ladies and Gentlemen:
    Today we start a concerted effort against the unchecked violence brought to us by thugs plaging our neighborhoods. MS-13 and other gangs like it have attacked into the fabric of our nation and it is the responsability of the Federal Goverment to fight back with all its might. So I am directing Homeland Security, the FBI and the Armed Forces to insert themselves head on and by Executive Mandate into the fight. The following are to be implemented inmediately:

    1) A comprenhensive and complete National Identification program designed to separate those who are US citizens and those who are legally in our countr from the menace of undocumented thugs. The system will include DNA and Biometric data as to make fake identification impossible.

    2) A total ban in the ownership of firearms by civilians. The closure of all firearms industries with the exception of those who directly provide weapons for the defense of this country. All civilians must turn in their weapons or demonstrate that they have been destroyed to the proper local authorities. Also, a ban on all private manufacturing of ammunition and ownership of any equipment or materials that can produce ammunition of any kind. Violation of this ban will be punished by 25 years to Life.

    3) The creation of a Federal System of Detention Camps to isolate the law breakers from populated areas. These camps will maintain the worse society can offer and subject them to a rigorous regime of hard labor and rehabilitation for those who chose to better themselves.

    4) Unique Digital Code for every electronic device capable of any kind of transmission. The UDC will be assigned to every citizen and will have to be used any time the individual wants to use devices like the Telephone, Email, Blackberry, DirecTV, etc. UDC will help us keep track of dangerous communications and illegal access to information.

    5) Unique Tracking Device to be implanted in all US citizens and legal aliens. The UTC will help track law abading citizens when they need the help of the goverment. At the same time it will help to locate those individual staying illegally in our country and ship them out. Sensors located in strategically places in every city and town will recognice an individual and interrogate the UTC. If there is no response, an alarm will be heard and the proper Law Enforcement Agencies will trap the suspect and take appropiate action.

    6)....... and the list goes on and on.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  4. #78
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    Miggy - that's the second time within an hour, you have blunted my appetite today!!
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  5. #79
    Member Array Rgr5280's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    I am with the Government and I am here to help you.

    That scares me as much as MS13.

    Ladies and Gentlemen:
    Today we start a concerted effort against the unchecked violence brought to us by thugs plaging our neighborhoods. MS-13 and other gangs like it have attacked into the fabric of our nation and it is the responsability of the Federal Goverment to fight back with all its might. So I am directing Homeland Security, the FBI and the Armed Forces to insert themselves head on and by Executive Mandate into the fight. The following are to be implemented inmediately:

    1) A comprenhensive and complete National Identification program designed to separate those who are US citizens and those who are legally in our countr from the menace of undocumented thugs. The system will include DNA and Biometric data as to make fake identification impossible.

    2) A total ban in the ownership of firearms by civilians. The closure of all firearms industries with the exception of those who directly provide weapons for the defense of this country. All civilians must turn in their weapons or demonstrate that they have been destroyed to the proper local authorities. Also, a ban on all private manufacturing of ammunition and ownership of any equipment or materials that can produce ammunition of any kind. Violation of this ban will be punished by 25 years to Life.

    3) The creation of a Federal System of Detention Camps to isolate the law breakers from populated areas. These camps will maintain the worse society can offer and subject them to a rigorous regime of hard labor and rehabilitation for those who chose to better themselves.

    4) Unique Digital Code for every electronic device capable of any kind of transmission. The UDC will be assigned to every citizen and will have to be used any time the individual wants to use devices like the Telephone, Email, Blackberry, DirecTV, etc. UDC will help us keep track of dangerous communications and illegal access to information.

    5) Unique Tracking Device to be implanted in all US citizens and legal aliens. The UTC will help track law abading citizens when they need the help of the goverment. At the same time it will help to locate those individual staying illegally in our country and ship them out. Sensors located in strategically places in every city and town will recognice an individual and interrogate the UTC. If there is no response, an alarm will be heard and the proper Law Enforcement Agencies will trap the suspect and take appropiate action.

    6)....... and the list goes on and on.
    LMAO
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    No, ExSoldier is right here. Miggy's piece, although humorous, is irrelevant. You need an army to fight an army. Essentially that's what MS13 is.

    Look I'm all for self reliance, but sometimes you need the professionals, like when MS13 is on the loose. We've got the men, we've got the guns, we have the capability to take them down. The politicos are just too namby pamby feelgood to do anything about it.

    Honestly, what are we supposed to do? Form a brigade and go around detaining and battling suspected MS13 members?

    Now perhaps if it was a sudden emergency and something had to be done now and it was do or die, that'd be fine, but that's not the situation. Law enforcement is one of the legitimate powers of the state that should be excercised by the state.

    There's a dual condition here... we've become so pissed at the government for taking power over things it Constituitionally isn't supposed to have power over, that when it comes time for the government to actually use their legitimate power, we mistrust it.

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    There's a dual condition here... we've become so pissed at the government for taking power over things it Constituitionally isn't supposed to have power over, that when it comes time for the government to actually use their legitimate power, we mistrust it.
    I guess some people do. I tend to trust it under the current administration.
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  8. #82
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    Cool Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    No, ExSoldier is right here. Miggy's piece, although humorous, is irrelevant. You need an army to fight an army. Essentially that's what MS13 is.

    There's a dual condition here... we've become so pissed at the government for taking power over things it Constituitionally isn't supposed to have power over, that when it comes time for the government to actually use their legitimate power, we mistrust it.
    Whew, I read Miggy's piece and I thought it might have been written by chuckie schumer and Hitlery Clinton! I just have to put schumer's name in all lower case 'cause he doesn't deserve a "Capital" as it would lend him too much credibility.

    Although Miggy's little rant...well discourse...it designed to push buttons on all politically astute gun owners it falls flat in todays societal conditions.

    Miggy assumes a government with hostile intentions of tyranny and oppression. That is not now the case, later on, it might be. But there are considerable hurdles to overcome for it to come to pass.

    Given a condition of simple intestinal fortitude in our political leadership, no impact need visit itself on our law abiding citizens or residents. All that is required is a slight modification in U.S. code to allow the military to undertake control of our borders as a matter of national defense and homeland security. Guns still pointed "down range" which is to say South.

    Modify the rules of engagement and notify the President of Mexico after the first engagement. Dump the bodies of his federales onto his desk in front of him and ask politely if he would kindly keep his dogs on a leash. Turn ICE, the FBI and every state agency loose on MS13. Label them enemy combatants in league with AQ.

    Heck, put a good old fashioned BOUNTY on them with the professional Bounty Hunters.

    Make it a "Reality Show"

    Hunting MS13 with your HOST....Jeff Probst! (Survivor).
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Heck, put a good old fashioned BOUNTY on them with the professional Bounty Hunters.
    EX,
    I think you may be on to something.

    There a many security firms (Private Military companys, not rent-a-cops) with experience dealing with terrorists and gangs of thugs. They could support local and federal LE to clean up the areas that need it. There have been many examples of PMCs doing a better job than goverments dealing with bloodthirsty armies.

    The Military should be protecting our borders with Extreme Prejudice. Other countries do this with much success.

    If ever in a confrontation with the likes of this or any gang, retreat is the best option. If not possible the first and only thing to do is stay alive. For the aftermath, all that later. Once a threat to your life has been established the what if's should have no bearing on the actions taken.
    NRA Life Member

    "All That Later"

  10. #84
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    My understanding is that resources are a little stretched right now. Imagine adding the responsibility of rounding up an estimated 50K gang members. It's just the reality of it.

    Putting it out to bounty hunters would mean a lot of deaths on both sides (and a lot of unqualified wannabes signing up for some cash). More than likely some bloody street battles

    That being said...maybe using the NG/Reserve units that now have some significant CQB experience for a little internal cleanup would be a good idea (imagine the political battle over this).
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  11. #85
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Couple of observations:
    1) We DO NOT wish to detain them. If you aren't aware of it, most gang activity is directed from our prisons (which would make sense, as it is the revolving dorm, for them). We want them dead.

    We have become too concerned with legalism, and "live and let live". Essentially, the First World lives in a completely artificial environment which relies totally on the physical/legal ability of a grossly limited community- LE/Mil. The Third World, and those living on the underbelly of the First World are Those That Are Able- when law stands in the way of common sense/morality, It Is NO Law (read your Revolutionary War Sermons and the Federalist papers.)

    Bandits, at the turn of the century, (Mex and norteno)feared the Texas Rangers because they knew crossing the Rangers would get them killed. Regardless of his, cough, "shortcomings of character", Caligula was correct: "Let them Hate, so long as they Fear...".

    Lastly, "bandit crime", was relatively rare from the 1870's to 1900. Why? Basically every man in the country had been to war, was armed, and "had seen the elephant". A few "townspeople" with Sharps' rifles and shotguns made short work of many gangs, in this era. Until we become the Beast, we will be food. There is a fine balence between being "hard", and being a terrorist- historically we've done very well.......

  12. #86
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    Possibly the one ''good'' thing with these guys (using ''good'' reservedly) is that they seem thus far to have undertaken a strong code of appearance modification - most obvious being the tat's.

    Well - a ''uniform'' of that sort, being as it seems a prerequisite for ''membership'' does at very least go a long way toward helping with ID!! MS-13 just in white shirt and suits would really be hard to track!!!
    Chris - P95
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  13. #87
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    Rob72, I was waiting to see WHO and HOW LONG it took for someone to take the strong(and smart) approach. These scumbags are nothing but POS's that have a little training and a little resolve. I have fought tougher than this in the past. I will be more than happy to fight them again. I'm older and slower but I am way better trained,equiped,and have the mindset. I also will use their reputation against them everytime. ie. I am in even more fear for my life than the "ordinary" street thug. I will defend my life faster and more positively with their kind than with the others. Also let me say that I and my friends, both from the "good ol' daze" and now, don't forget either. We will make sure that justice is served. We will come back with a vengence. We will go to where they live and fight the war on their turf. And we will win. All this,with the HELP of our friends in the LEO community. These scumbags simply haven't frigged with the right people yet. If they had,they wouldn't be still so GD feared by some folk. Lets put these MS13 types in the proper perspective. They are one step higher than the other punks. They are not immortal. --------

  14. #88
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    Alright...no offense meant to anyone here. If they came into our lives we can all talk about how we're going to strike back with a vengenance and how we're better trained and how they're POS's.

    In the end who (civilians) will actually commit to a full time manhunt? Are you going to give up your job, join a militia and attempt to hunt down 50K MS13ers? Who's going to provide intel (good intel not 'backwoods', 'old school', 'street smart' good ol' boy stuff). How long would it take to organize a militia? Think about the logistics alone for this.

    The training MS13 received went deeper than small unit tactics.
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    No, ExSoldier is right here. Miggy's piece, although humorous, is irrelevant. You need an army to fight an army.
    Not so irrelevant. The point made by Ex was that MS13 was a Federal Problem and my disertation was to remind everybody that when we let Feds deal with a problem percieved as a great danger, they will exact a price that we may find more expensive in the long run than the original price we refused to pay.

    Do-it-yourself is cheaper than "Expert" contractor.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  16. #90
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    Exclamation MS13 IS a very Federal Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Not so irrelevant. The point made by Ex was that MS13 was a Federal Problem and my disertation was to remind everybody that when we let Feds deal with a problem percieved as a great danger, they will exact a price that we may find more expensive in the long run than the original price we refused to pay.

    Do-it-yourself is cheaper than "Expert" contractor.
    Other than the Clinton administration and barring Ruby Ridge which was Bush #41, name a time when this dark nightmare of yours occurred in your lifetime. I'm not saying it's impossible, because clearly there is some precedent. But as I posited previously, there are some enoumous hurdles to overcome before it can come to pass.

    Do it yourself may be cheaper, but there is a reason they're called "experts."
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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