MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations - Page 7

MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations

This is a discussion on MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Let me see if I can give you a very plausible scenario here. (Warning to Chris, get you Pepto Bismol) Your neighborhood starts to be ...

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Thread: MS-13: kinda changes the perspective on concealed carry considerations

  1. #91
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    Let me see if I can give you a very plausible scenario here. (Warning to Chris, get you Pepto Bismol)

    Your neighborhood starts to be a frequent hunting ground for the Maras. Following what you and others have said, you expect the local PD to take charge. Now, PD must build cases against these gansters, but the locals are afraid to be involved. If they break into a car and rob the stereo and saw who did it, the victim decides not to call the cops because they are afraid if he drops the dime, the Maras will come after him. Same thing if they break into a house or rape somebody or murder anyone. PD can't build cases to take to DA's and crime goes unchecked. Maybe if the number of murders gets high enough, the common folk will complain about it and say that the police is not doing the work they are supposed to and the cops will respond that, without community help, there is not much they can do about it. In the meantime, Maras keep getting more and more power and territory and you decide to move because it has become too dangerous. By this time your property is valued ad zilch plus $10 and you are basically out of one of the biggest investments of your life and the bank does not give a damn about it just as you pay the mortgage.
    You find a nice little apartrment in a quiet area, but it doesn't take long for you to see the graffitti in a corner and the cycle begins again.

    Now, it has gotten bad enough and the people are fed up with it. Lo and behold here comes some politico promising to take care of the situation if you accept the drastic changes he is proposing. People are at their witt's end and, searching for a little peace, vote in favor of the draconian measures that, unfortunately, may or may not affect the Maras, but sure as hell look good on TV and newspaper editorials rant in favor and the average citizen (us) gets shafted.

    And add to the equation that the ACLU will work Pro Bono for the Maras and the lefties will scream for them in the Media, and you will wake up someday saying How the hell I ended up without Peace and Freedom.

    At least, that is the way I see will happen because it is the way it has happened before.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question It's happened before? WHEN & WHERE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    At least, that is the way I see will happen because it is the way it has happened before.
    When has it happened in this country -- barring the American Revolution?

    Please don't point to Nazi Germany or any other tyranny. America is unique in all of history. No other nation in history has a document that restrained government to the point that our Constitution does. Does that make us an aberration? An exception to the rule? Damn skippy it does! I say again, you say it's happened before? Tell us when and where ..... in THIS country. Please also, do not raise the 20,000 + gun laws already on the books. Those have weakened the 2nd Amendment, but they have not turned this nation into a tyranny.

    IIRC, the closest we've ever come to what you are suggesting was the L.A. riots and even that wasn't universal. Witness all those Korean business owners stalking the rooftops with their AR-15's and AK-47's. They weren't touched. That situation did not last, either. Why not? Federal intervention, or the threat of it. Same thing with the recent unpleasantness in New Orleans.

    Miggy, this sounds like a movie script. In fact it IS the plot of countless movies and books. But it's not reality. You saying it's going to happen does not necessarily make it so.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  3. #93
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    Ahh have you forgotten the good all days in NYC when gangs were rampant, where crime was up through the roof, people refused to testify in trials or even call the cops? Remember Kitty Genovese? Remember the City trying to disguise abandoned building by painting flowers on the boarded up windows?
    Passing laws on histeria?
    The Racist Roots of Gun Control

    It is history. A sad one.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  4. #94
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    I don't need the Tums Miggy but - what you frame there is very plausible indeed.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  5. #95
    Member Array Rgr5280's Avatar
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    The plot would make a great comedy. Vigilante justice coordinated over this great nat ion in an effective manner is impossible.
    Too bad Don Knotts isn't available to play the lead.
    "May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, " - Ted Nugent

  6. #96
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    Sounds kinda like trial by vigilante. And yes, I say that as if it's a bad thing.

    MS-13 is not a problem for citizens to conquer - it's a problem for law enforcement or perhaps an arm of the military.

    We as citizens simply do not have the resources, time, or authority to deal with a problem of this magnitude except as we are individually involved and have no choice.

  7. #97
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    Exclamation Thread Definitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Ahh have you forgotten the good all days in NYC when gangs were rampant, where crime was up through the roof, people refused to testify in trials or even call the cops? Remember Kitty Genovese? Remember the City trying to disguise abandoned building by painting flowers on the boarded up windows?
    Passing laws on histeria?
    The Racist Roots of Gun Control

    It is history. A sad one.
    The Kitty Genovese scenario is indeed sad. But it underscores the fact that nobody wants to take on an outfit like MS13. I'm certain that everybody who regularly posts on this board would draw and take a stand....if they were forced into a confrontation. The point I made is that we're not the ones who should be taking the lead in eradicating this threat! We're the ones responsible for electing a government who will act in accordance with the Bill of Rights and we're the ones who must monitor them to keep them from moving in such a way as to restrict US rather than declaring open season on gangs like MS13.

    I just finished recently the era of Reconstruction; the Black Codes and the "Jim Crow" laws in my four American History classes. My students now know the truth. The racist roots of gun control certainly plays a part in the passage of laws like the infamous "Sullivan Law" in NYC. Like the statewide Assault Weapons Ban in California and elsewhere. However those laws are oblique to the essence of this discussion. But for the sake of clarity lets define the essence of this discussion:

    This started out as a discussion on how MS13 would affect the ways in which forum members would carry a defensive weapon during the course of daily business. I think that was supposed to be a simple discourse on magazine capacity. Then we discussed the differences on MS13 as a threat as distinct from other groups. Brutality, dedication to the destruction of enemies; etc. That morphed into the inadvisability of possible citizen confrontations while CCW. THAT extended discourse again morphed into possible solutions. THAT has become the bulk of this thread. The two main positions:

    1. Miggy suggests that the US Government and all local and state governments be left out of the loop because history shows that whenever those folks get involved, they pass laws that are inevitably intrusive to the average law abiding citizen. This only seems to worsen the situation while affording more and more power to the government, at our expense. Miggy bolsters his argument with some very plausible scenarios and with some historical data that seems to be applicable only to certain periods of history and restricted to certain regions of the country.

    2. The other side of this discourse suggests that MS13 represents a national security threat of a variety of dimensions such as the links to AQ and smuggling operations of drugs, illegals and terrorists.....not to mention possibly smuggling WMD. Further that there is very little that can be done by private citizens to deter this unless you want your family to fall directly into the scrutiny this group exerts on a defined enemy. They won't stop. They won't "Go Away" in the face of determined citizen resistance (this is the essence of Miggy's argument) and they don't operate by the same rules of engagement WE as citizens are subject to by law! Our hands are tied even tighter than the LEO's! The bulk of this argument lies in using the military to secure our national borders, and allowing the government unfettered access to the threat while keeping them inside narrowly defined parameters to limit intrusions against law abiding citizens and the Bill of Rights.

    Okay....NOW WHAT?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #98
    Member Array Dave James's Avatar
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    The problem being that "We" the Police are there for the PUBLIC ORDER and PROTECTION, the any thing else,, thats why its so important that the Civillan CCW be backed and talked up.

    "WE" the police are no longer a proactive force, haven't been since the late 50's early 60's.

  9. #99
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    Miggy suggests that the US Government and all local and state governments be left out of the loop because history shows that whenever those folks get involved, they pass laws that are inevitably intrusive to the average law abiding citizen.
    WHOA there Bubba! I never said anything like that. I have only stated that the point of view that you exposed the civilians should not be witnesses, run away if the neighborhood went bad and leaving all the work and RESPONSABILITY to LEOs is not the way to go. If we don't work with LEO and stand our ground to defend what is ours, then do not complain when your rights are eroded with new dacronian legislation. Or, don't complain about losing the rights you didnt want to stand up for in the first place.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  10. #100
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    Exclamation The Key is Political INVOLVEMENT

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    WHOA there Bubba! I never said anything like that. I have only stated that the point of view that you exposed the civilians should not be witnesses, run away if the neighborhood went bad and leaving all the work and RESPONSABILITY to LEOs is not the way to go. If we don't work with LEO and stand our ground to defend what is ours, then do not complain when your rights are eroded with new dacronian legislation. Or, don't complain about losing the rights you didnt want to stand up for in the first place.
    I never suggested civilians run away from anything...leave the neighborhood, etc. THAT came from another poster. It sure sounded to me (and a few others) that you espoused unilateral action without the involvement of government! I merely state that in the larger picture on a national scale, the military should control all our borders and the foreign gangs on our soil (be they from El Salvadore, Japan or Vietnam) be declared a threat to national security and be dealt with accordingly.

    As I said before it is very much up to us to keep the government "in line" with the Bill of Rights so that the draconian legislation you mention does not come to pass. BUT.... that requires involvement in politics at all levels.

    Considering that only a tiny portion of the electorate cares enough to actually get involved and those usually represent the extreme wings of each party then those are the ones who get to "suggest" policy. I freely admit to being from the FAR (vast?) right wing of the Republican party. I get involved in all levels of government as far as campaigns go. I work the phones, walk neighborhoods to knock on doors and I work the polls.

    I campaigned for a Republican on the school board here (she won), I volunteered for Jeb (he won -- twice) and I volunteered for GWB (he won -- twice, too). I volunteered for Illeana Ros Lehtinen since she is my Rep and deserves my support.

    The bottom line is, as far as I'm concerned: If you care enough to get involved, then you have a perfect right to complain about government actions or lack thereof. But if you don't even care enough to exercise the most minimum level of involvement, that is to VOTE....well you get the government you deserve. By electing pro self defense, pro gun candidates you can affect the process. That's what I call standing up for my rights. I've done so all my life and I will to the day I check out.

    OTOH, I don't need to go eyeball to eyeball with MS13 to effect change. If I'm attacked directly that is of course a different situation and we've covered that. I would avoid to the best of my ability any gang involvement. That's a little bit more difficult for me as MS13 operates freely about six blocks from where I teach. Although I probably don't have any actual members in my classes, I do have many that are "affiliated" or know them at one level or another. I can't be armed at work, nor can I have a firearm in my car on school property.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #101
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    Again, I never supported vigilante actions. And the feel I got from you and Tangle was that (and sorry if it sounds too strong) the way to go was to bury the head in the sand or run away leaving all the work to LEOs. Hell, even if I wanted to go Vigilante I'd need LEOs to get me intelligence on the targets!

    Damn... we are into page 10. We beat the Holster Swap by a mile.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  12. #102
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    Waaaaaiiilll Whut we HAVE here is.....A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!
    (Cool Hand Luke)

    Miggy, you going to the picnic at Markham on Saturday?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #103
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    Thumbs up Amen

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    MS-13 is not a problem for citizens to conquer - it's a problem for law enforcement or perhaps an arm of the military.

    We as citizens simply do not have the resources, time, or authority to deal with a problem of this magnitude except as we are individually involved and have no choice.
    Amen. I think that's going to be my final word on this thread. SO....what Tangle said!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Waaaaaiiilll Whut we HAVE here is.....A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!
    (Cool Hand Luke)

    Miggy, you going to the picnic at Markham on Saturday?


    I think you might be right! We've been arguing for no damn reason!

    I don't think I will be going. I am sick as a dog and I still gotta go to work so I am gonna save myself for the darn paycheck.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  15. #105
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    I don't think I will be going. I am sick as a dog and I still gotta go to work so I am gonna save myself for the darn paycheck.
    We'll miss you. I'll have an extra burger for you.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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