U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico

U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico

This is a discussion on U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; A lot of questionable comments in here, as well as bad facts. U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico By JOEL MILLMAN PHOENIX -- This ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24
  1. #1
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 14,650'
    Posts
    12,554

    U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico

    A lot of questionable comments in here, as well as bad facts.

    U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico

    By JOEL MILLMAN

    PHOENIX -- This week, an Arizona gun shop goes on trial in state court in what law-enforcement officials are calling a landmark case against gun dealers who sell weapons that end up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, fueling horrific violence south of the border that killed more than 6,000 people last year.

    X-Caliber Guns LLC, is accused of knowingly selling hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47s, to buyers who were posing as fronts for Mexican drug gangs. The gun store's owner, 47-year-old George Iknadosian, has maintained his innocence in court filings.

    While the U.S. has long pressed Mexico to stop the flow of illegal drugs such as cocaine from crossing the border heading north, Mexico has complained that the U.S. doesn't stop the flow of guns heading south. Mexican and U.S. officials estimate that more than 90% of the weapons used by Mexican drug cartels come from the U.S.


    Mexican soldiers arrived in the border city of Ciudad Juarez on Sunday, to confront drug-trafficking cartels in the country's most violent region. Mexican and U.S. officials estimate that more than 90% of weapons used by Mexican drug cartels come from the U.S.

    Consider what happened last year in the Mexican border city of Nogales. The chief of the Sonora state anti-drug unit, Juan Manuel Pavón, was murdered by cartel hit men, just hours after attending a U.S. seminar on how to resist the tide of American firearms surging into Mexico. Several weapons linked to the crime traced back to X-Caliber Guns.

    "The three highest priorities for me in terms of U.S. cooperation in the drugs war are these: guns, guns, guns," Mexican Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora said in a recent interview with The Wall Street Journal. "These drug groups intimidate society and government because of their firepower. And their firepower comes from the U.S."

    No one knows how many weapons cross the border into Mexico each year. Unlike contraband drugs, which are consumed, contraband guns "remain in circulation until they are captured," says Terry Goddard, the Arizona Attorney General bringing the case against X-Caliber Guns.

    The number of U.S. guns in Mexico is growing. The Justice Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, says more than 7,700 guns sold in America were traced to Mexico in the fiscal year ending last September. That's twice the 3,300 recorded the previous year and more than triple the 2,100 traced the year before that.

    U.S. officials acknowledge that U.S. gun laws are partly to blame. The 1994 ban on the sale of assault weapons like AK-47s in the U.S. led to a decrease of such weapons south of the border. But the ban expired in 2004, and the numbers in Mexico spiked. Last week, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said the Obama administration would seek to reinstate the ban. Contributing to the problem is the fact that Mexico's customs control is famously weak, and authorities rarely check inbound traffic from the U.S.

    Meanwhile, Mexican drug gangs are stocking up on deadlier weapons. ATF officials say they have registered more purchases of high-powered FN Herstal rifles and pistols -- the Belgian-made weapon called "matapolicias" in Mexico, or "cop killers," for their ability to fire through body armor. Such items are sold in hundreds of Arizona gun shops, or by private owners advertising online.

    Although U.S. gun laws generally forbid the sale of weapons to noncitizens, the X-Caliber case shows how Mexican purchasers used intermediaries -- or "straw buyers" -- to flout the rules.

    The scheme, according to the prosecution, was simple: The buyers, usually 19- to 22-year-old U.S. citizens with no police record, declared that the firearm was for personal use, but instead passed it along to an associate of a Mexican cartel. The buyer filled out a standard form used by the ATF to track firearms. Lying on the form is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. But ATF agents here say buyers in the X-Caliber case were paid a fee to run that risk -- up to $100 on each transaction.

    Gun shops generally rely on ATF recordkeeping to check them before selling to the wrong buyer. Ken Logan, a manager at the Shooters World gun store in Phoenix says the ATF form, once approved after being checked against a national data base, relieves the store of responsibility. "The ATF says 'yea' or 'nay,' on who I can sell a gun to," he says.

    Gun stores run the risk of lawsuits if they're deemed to be "profiling" -- refusing to sell guns to young Latinos, for instance. Mr. Logan concedes he has seen men enter gun stores, point out to a girlfriend what weapon they should buy, and leave. The girlfriend fills out the form, attesting the firearm is for her personal use.

    Getting bullets is even easier. Gun dealers here must report anyone purchasing more than one handgun during a single five-day period, but there is no restriction on ammunition. Last Christmas Eve, salesmen at Cabela's Sporting Goods store in Phoenix were surprised when two Hispanic men bought 24,000 rounds of 5.7 caliber bullets -- the same caliber used in FN "cop killers." They paid in cash -- more than $10,000. When the buyers were seen loading their purchase into a car with Mexican license plates, store managers summoned police. Authorities found 12 FN rifles and three "cop killer" handguns.

    Police arrested the buyers, but only because they were foreign nationals, thus forbidden from possessing arms in the U.S.

    The murder of Mr. Pavón last year illustrates how Arizona's gun-friendly culture contributes to mayhem in Mexico. Last October, the men under Mr. Pavón's command fought gangs of narco-pistoleros in gun battles across the state. On October 24, a caravan of heavily armed assassins descended on Nogales, only to be repelled, leaving 10 gunmen dead. A week later, they attacked a police substation about a mile from the U.S. border crossing.

    Days later, Mr. Pavón was in Arizona for consultations with U.S. officials.

    At a farewell picnic at a federal shooting range in Tucson, the Mexican policeman was invited to test fire a powerful American weapon that has been surfacing lately in the narco-gangs' arsenals: the 50 caliber Barrett rifle, powerful enough to pierce a tank's armor.

    "We had a shootout," recalls Mr. Newell, the ATF agent. "He won."

    The following night, Commander Pavón was ambushed as he entered a Nogales hotel.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    4,296
    Sounds to me like mr pavon needed to learn how to take care of his own country rather than blame someone else for his country's plight.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    Well I gotta say that when a guy points out a gun for a girlfriend to buy for him even tho she signs the forms If he even thinks it's a straw purchase he needs to decline the sale,and I believe that is why he is in trouble,I will bet the ATF set up a sting where they made it pretty clear it was a straw purchase and he went ahead with the sale anyway.I might be wrong but sumpin tells me otherwise.If in fact they are trying to go after him because his guns are turning up in Mexico then that's BS they should go after the buyers and make examples out of them by throwing em in prison for the max
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    washington
    Posts
    4,849
    As usual the media doesn't have or doesn't gine the whole story. They as well use 'flame' words to excite emotions in people. Perfect example of trash jurnalism.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Rowlett, Texas
    Posts
    1,739
    Since when does our Constitution say we must give up our RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS just because another country is tearing itself down with drug cartels.........
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
    Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
    http://www.tac-def-tx.com/
    CHL INSTRUCTOR
    Retired LEO
    NRA member
    TCHA member

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    1,271
    ...Mexican purchasers used intermediaries -- or "straw buyers" -- to flout the rules.
    And I suppose these new rules are going to be magically "unfloutable"?

    News Flash for these folks: Criminals don't obey the law.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    cafepress.com/bgstudios

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Show Me State
    Posts
    2,654
    Why is it so easy for a Mexican national to buy 24,000 rounds and I can't even find a box of 50?
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  8. #8
    VIP Member
    Array DaveH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Posts
    5,036
    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Since when does our Constitution say we must give up our RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS just because another country is tearing itself down with drug cartels.........
    Right on.

    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  9. #9
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,665

    24,000 rds

    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    Why is it so easy for a Mexican national to buy 24,000 rounds and I can't even find a box of 50?
    Patti: You are absolutely right. Something is wrong with the picture.

    Assuming the story is correct and accurate about the number of rounds sold, just think about that. Where did the supply come from? How was it obtained? Why was it sold to a Mexican National?

    Your question raises a set of real interesting points, and not about supply and demand; about legal sales v those backed by possible bribery and corruption; maybe about re-sale of stolen ammo.

    I'd think that even an active legitimate gun store would have to scramble to find 24,000 rounds of anything. Maybe Walmart can order that much for a regional supply and distribution center, but it sure seems over the top for your neighborhood gun dealer--even Cabelas. Didn't know they were in the ammo dump biz.

    Something doesn't pass the sniff test here. Oh, and how many dollars would have to have been paid out to buy those 24,000 rnds?

    You suppose they paid cash?

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    7,798
    So, let me see if I have this right.

    If they ban their sale here, we can go to Mexico and buy some of them back ????

    And prices here are up due to availability ?? HEY >>>>>> you can't buy our guns.... we need to keep those folks out of here..... buying US weapons illegally.

    And, so we arrest the guy selling them ?? What about the guy's buying them that are here illegally... what happens to them... we just send them back ?

  11. #11
    Member
    Array armado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    435
    If firearms were legal and available to law abiding Mexican citizens, wouldn't they be better able to defend themselves? And if firearms were made illegal or tightly regulated in the US wouldn't the cartels get weapons through their southern border or via sea lanes from Colombia, Venezuela, Cuba, Ecuador or some other country? Disarming a law abiding American citizen will only make all Americans less free, and will not make Mexicans more safe. I have heard some Mexican politicians say that the US should legalize drugs to take the profit out of criminal enterprise, but I suggest that the Mexican government allow their citizens the ability to defend themselves. Most Mexicans distrust the military and especially the police, and can do nothing more that duck when the bullets start flying. I can think of no greater travesty than for American citizens to find themselves in the same helpless, disarmed state. I will not give up my weapons to appease the the desires of another sovereign nation.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Near St. Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    2,837
    If the Mexican government is so concerned about the porous border, maybe they can make some efforts to help seal it.

  13. #13
    Member Array webhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ... Oh, and how many dollars would have to have been paid out to buy those 24,000 rnds?

    You suppose they paid cash?
    Original post says they paid over $10,000 cash for the rounds.

  14. #14
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 14,650'
    Posts
    12,554
    There are Federal banking and cash reporting statutes (for taxes) that require special forms to be filled out for receipts of more than $10,000 in cash too. I wonder if that was completed?

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Rowlett, Texas
    Posts
    1,739
    I read the other day in a LEO bulletin that the mexican drug cartel laundered more than 17 billion dollars in the U.S. in the last to years. Now assuming they got some of their guns here.........17 billion dollars will get you guns from anywhere is the world.
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
    Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
    http://www.tac-def-tx.com/
    CHL INSTRUCTOR
    Retired LEO
    NRA member
    TCHA member

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Mexican Drug Violence- Drug Cartels vs. Legalizing Drugs in America?
    By Tally XD in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: August 30th, 2010, 08:12 AM
  2. Court ruling; Past drug minor misdemeanor drug convictions takes away right to carry
    By SIXTO in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: July 26th, 2010, 12:20 AM
  3. 19 fatally shot at drug rehab center in Mexico
    By joecs1 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: June 12th, 2010, 04:42 PM
  4. Feds plan 'surge' if Mexico drug war spills over
    By Maverickx50 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: January 16th, 2009, 08:09 AM
  5. Journalists become targets in Mexico's drug war
    By dukalmighty in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 7th, 2008, 12:20 PM

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors