LEO's: what procedures to you follow to ensure BG or GG?

This is a discussion on LEO's: what procedures to you follow to ensure BG or GG? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Referencing the recent thread on NYPD Cop Dies After Fellow Cop Shoots Him , I am wondering something: If you are LEO, what specific procedural ...

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Thread: LEO's: what procedures to you follow to ensure BG or GG?

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    LEO's: what procedures to you follow to ensure BG or GG?

    Referencing the recent thread on NYPD Cop Dies After Fellow Cop Shoots Him, I am wondering something:

    If you are LEO, what specific procedural precautions do you and your department take to ensure NO mistaken take-downs are committed? How do you validate whether someone engaging in the detainment of a felon is or is not righteous in those actions, prior to employing force to take over the situation?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    With overlapping jurisdiction, and so many agencies involved, in my area, none at all. Undercover guys are taught certain procedures to minimize the risk of being shot when other officers respond, but that is not for public viewing. As cadets, it was hammered into our heads that we are armed and out of uniform, we are to OBEY THE COMMANDS of responding officers. As Texas peace officers, we KNOW that many carry guns, who are not bad guys. It is ingrained in our minds, for the most part.

    It is probably best for NOBODY to chase a criminal while having a gun in-hand, ideally, for various reasons, but obviously, if the chase is successful, that gun may have to be drawn and presented. This discussion probably best belongs in the Concealed Carry Issues and Discussions.

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    Most larger departments and agencies have procedures in place, but I doubt if you will find one who's members would discuss the subject on a "public" forum.
    Rick

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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    Most larger departments and agencies have procedures in place, but I doubt if you will find one who's members would discuss the subject on a "public" forum.
    Indeed. We don't want to teach the bad guys anything that can be turned against against us. The common street thug may not read forums, but there are some few true scholars and IT guys working for the cartels and such. It is the Mexican drug cartels that really scare me lately. A very major artery for drug shipments, US Highway 59, passes through my beat.

    Then, there are Islamists. There is an Israeli consulate in my beat, plus other major Jewish targets, and a HUGE business center and high-end hotels. There is an old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times." Well, I do live in interesting times!

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    Most larger departments and agencies have procedures in place, but I doubt if you will find one who's members would discuss the subject on a "public" forum.
    Right. While I'm not asking that "secrets" be divulged, there simply have to be suggestions beyond "obey instructions," since people who are in-the-know are still getting shot.

    Obviously, I'm asking from the viewpoint of an upstanding citizen who's entirely likely to get gunned down by responding officers if everything doesn't go swimmingly.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Obviously, I'm asking from the viewpoint of an upstanding citizen who's entirely likely to get gunned down by responding officers if everything doesn't go swimmingly.
    Since we citizens won't know the "secret handshake" or anything, I think that it is up to the armed citizen to plan ahead how they would handle the situation.

    I don't think running after someone while holding a gun is something that would give any responding LEO a warm fuzzy.

    As far as how the cops avoid shooting an armed citizen, I can't think of any steps they could take to lessen the likelihood of such an accident without increasing their own personal risk.

    Let's say a cop and an armed citizen converge and both have drawn weapons. This is real life where the decision to shoot or not will be made in miliseconds.

    Bottom line is that my gun will come out ONLY when I believe that my life is in immediate danger and will be reholstered as soon as the threat is dealt with.

    Hey!!! Maybe this is an argument for the concealed carry badge!! Just kidding . . . . . . . Honest.
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    Distinguished Member Array old grunt's Avatar
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    No pat answer here. It is the obligation of BOTH the "working cops"(both uniformed and plain-clothes)and an "off-duty" guys getting involved in a situation while dressed in civvies to use phrases("on the job!", "off-duty cop!"and other jargon)to communicate and prevent blue-on-blue firearms encounter. Things like "color of the day" for working plain-clothes cops helps also. To ID BG's is something that comes from experience. I think preventing cops from hurting other cops has to be a priority of in-service training. We can't afford anymore incidents like what just happened in NYC.
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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Policies, procedures, training and practices are ideal but these situations are so very dynamic in the fact that they are bringing together three elements (plainclothes LEO, uniformed LEO and a BG) that when mixed are very volatile.

    There are practices I can't discuss but the standard that I stress is to make sure your gun is away and to defer all authority to the uniformed LEO on scene.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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    Part of the problem in NY is that there ONLY bad guys have guns. The citizenry has been effectively disarmed - I figure the cops there generally see a guy with a gun and guess what? he is a bad guy. I am interested to know what the cop was wearing off duty as well... was he dressed like a thug? (yea I know not politically correct - get over it) I mean I know what I think, some guy dressed like thug chasing some other guy with a gun in his hand.... alot different than watching some guy in blue jeans that fit and a polo shirt ya know?
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

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    New Member Array BPDlawman's Avatar
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    I noticed in the article it stated the off duty cop turned towards the on duty one with his gun. They taught us to never have your weapon remotely towards the on duty guys and to yell over and over "I'm a cop." They also mentioned prayer as a good thing to.

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    I would imagine this is more of a problem in the larger cities. While no one in any dept is immune,in smaller depts like we see around here, pretty much everyone knows everyone. The city guys, the county guys, the local PD's that the handful of cities in this countires employ, pretty much we all know each other because we cross each others paths in various ways.

    They large depts. dont have that luxury. Some depts around the country have over 20,000 officers and a couple have way more than that.
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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Regarding the recent blue-on-blue shooting in NYC, I do believe it was plainclothes officer(s) who engaged the off-duty officer. It may have been difficult for the off-duty officer to know who was confronting him.

    Keep in mind that it is a VERY natural thing to turn toward the source of a sudden stimulus, with your whole upper body, which includes your weapon, if you are holding it at the time. Moreover, the off-duty cop MAY have thought the on-duty plainclothes cop was an accomplice of the bad guy. Bad guys do run in packs; an armed back-up is not an uncommon thing among bad guys.

    Believe me, situations have occurred in which three armed guys are all pointing guns at each other, and nobody wants to lower their gun, like an out-take from the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. By the grace of God, most of these turn out OK.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    Since we citizens won't know the "secret handshake" or anything, I think that it is up to the armed citizen to plan ahead how they would handle the situation.
    That's why I'm asking. I just figure that with the LEO horsepower, here, we should be able to establish a few basic rules that would work well with the SOP of departments such that innocents won't be likely to get taken out.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    How about something like this...

    Probably not a good idea to be chasing someone.

    If you do shoot and hit, look for additional threats, reload if necessary.

    Don't approach the person you've shot.

    Don't lose sight of the person that you've shot.

    Move behind cover and position yourself so you can see the responding Officers before they can see you. Key point here...this prevents Officers from surprising you when they arrive and prevents you from being on top of a shot guy with a gun in your hand.

    Holster your handgun and take out your cell phone and call 911. Advise what happened and give a description of yourself. Practice all of this through mental imagery, because the first time you do it should not be the real deal.

    LEO or civilian - understand that you have no authority when you are in street clothes and there are uniformed police on the scene. No matter how important you think you are or what rank you hold, you must defer authority to the uniformed police on scene, at least until the situation is understood.
    Last edited by semperfi.45; May 31st, 2009 at 07:21 AM.
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    New Member Array BPDlawman's Avatar
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    Another thing is to expect a police response and be prepared for it. You know the on duty cops are coming, they don't know you are there. Think ahead and be ready for their arrival. Announce who you are, don't make sudden movements or gestures and have your badge out and visible when they arrive.

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