The myth of the highly trained LEO?
This is a discussion on The myth of the highly trained LEO? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I want to discuss what I believe is the myth by the antis and some LEO's of the highly trained highly skilled LEO.
Let me ...
July 19th, 2009 06:59 PM
The myth of the highly trained LEO?
I want to discuss what I believe is the myth by the antis and some LEO's of the highly trained highly skilled LEO.
Let me say that first off I believe most LEO are good people trying to do the right thing as they see it but when it comes to firearms and shooting I believe the average NRA or CWP gun owner knows more about shooting,guns and the carry laws and are better shots and shoot more than most LEO's (excluding SWAT and those on special teams).
Now there are exceptions there are some LEO's who shoot often who get training outside the dept. and who shoot in different shooting sports.But I believe those are the exceptions.
Now I have some LEO experience myself I served 12yrs as a correctional officer.Here were our standards for firearms.When I went through the academy you shot a 100 rds to qualify we shot a silhouette target with the center bowling pin worth 5pts the rest worth 4 with a perfect score of 500 we shot from the 5,10,15,&25 yd lines just standard punching holes in paper no barricades no movement etc... After the academy it was dropped to 50 rds with a perfect score of 250 I think to qualify you had to score a 160 or so not a very high standard I usually shot over 240, most of the time over 245 this was with no practice I didn't shoot a whole lot back then.
We qualified ounce a year I have literally seen people not put 6 shots (we shot 4" S&W .38 revolvers) in the black from the 5 yrd line every year we had some that failed to qualify at least the first time ( I suspect they never did they just passed them) Now I will admit that most officers did not carry most of the time.We only carried on perimeter security,transport and hospital duty. and we could not carry off duty so weapons skill were generally not required.
Most LEO officers that I know around here only qualify once a year they only have to score about 70% and it is just punching holes in paper no tactics.After the academy they don't get any training but on the job training and while they maybe experienced in making arrest that does not make them expert gun handlers and shots.
Now understand I am no expert shot do not have any extra training either but I probably shot more,better and know more about weapons than the average LEO around here much less in more anti gun areas such as NY,NJ and Chicago.
What are your opinions on the highly trained LEO and if you are a LEO or former LEO what were your departments standards.
July 19th, 2009 07:23 PM
I work at a shooting range used by LEO's to qualify - it ain't a myth.
July 19th, 2009 08:26 PM
I think that the only ones who truly believe that “all” LEOs are experts are those who have little or no experience with Law Enforcement and just assume that the uniform MUST mean that they are all experts.
Most people who interact with LEOs on a regular basis will tell you that the percentage of “gun people” within the LEO community is not really much higher than the percentage of “gun people” outside the LEO community.
Are there highly skilled “gun people” within the LEO community? YES, and not all of them are SWAT or Special Teams either.
Are there those in the LEO community that are not “gun people”? YES, but not an unreasonably high percentage. I know it might “seem” like a lot of LEOs are not, but that is just because a lot of people associate the uniform with a high level of proficiency with firearms.
I know many who are highly trained and skilled. I also know many who look at their pistol as just something they need for the job, similar to how an office worker views his/her stapler. Some of them don’t use, or even think about their pistol until it comes time for quals.
I know one Officer that doesn’t like guns and she even refuses to take it with her when she travels. If she is not in uniform then her pistol is unloaded and put away. She is still good at her job, which is helping the public. I just hope she is never in a situation which will require her to depend on her shooting skills.
Being a LEO that is not very good with a gun does not make them a bad LEO, just one that is less proficient than he/she could be with the tools of the trade.
July 19th, 2009 08:32 PM
July 19th, 2009 08:37 PM
Good posts. There are some LEOs that are very interested in firearms, and some that view their service firearm as a carpenter views his hammer. Put it away until the next day.
I remember years ago working with RCMP in Ontario and serving some arrest warrants. The Squad SGT had his revolver in his desk drawer, wrapped in an oiled cloth. He unwrapped it and loaded it prior to leaving the office. Then after our outing, insisted on returning to the office and unloading and wrapping the revolver and putting it back in his desk. Great cop....just didn't like guns.
I qualified quarterly for 28 years and carry today under LEOSA. I still shoot expert and still love firearms. Am I any more highly trained than the next person? I still work at training...Gunsite, Thunder Ranch...all by choice. Many LEOs still are highly QUALIFIED, but not interested in 'tactical' living.
July 19th, 2009 10:20 PM
We really expect too much of our officers and I wish I had an answer to how we could do things differently. We expect them to know the law; be wise; be patient; be courteous. We expect them to be race track drivers; radio operators; and sometimes providers of first aid. We expect them to know guns, and we expect them to have the self defense skills of a martial artist.
We expect them to work long shifts in blazing sun or frigid temps. We expect them to be unfailingly brave.
And for all of that we think we don't need to pay them.
Maybe that's why we sometimes seem to get so many bad apples. We expect too much.
July 19th, 2009 10:24 PM
Very well said. Although I don't think we get that many bad apples, at the very least much fewer percentagewise than the rest of the population. It's just the ones that are bad apples make the news while the ones that aren't don't.
Originally Posted by Hopyard
64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
July 19th, 2009 10:34 PM
Sorry, I'm about to light this thread on fire. I get tired of hearing this silly notion from both sides of the coin.
It isn't about skill on the range, its knowledge between the ears. What I mean by that is, the average LEO, gun guy or not, has a much better understanding of the legal repercussions and mental aspects of carrying a gun, using the gun in defense and the aftermath of all above. It extends far beyond being able to hit a paper target with little or no stress before during or afterward. So, I say, pull your head out and stop looking at self defense and firearm ownership in such a superficial manner. Really... the skill required to defend ones self extends much more beyond hitting a paper target in conditions you dictate.
Also, it has become somewhat "cool" to assert yourself a better shooter than "most LEO's" Good for you. It aint hard to do on a range.
Now, those who have read my posts here know that I'm very "tactical" ( I hate that word BTW, so over used) in my thinking. However, if you should meet me, one would assume that I'm just the opposite. That is all by design, and I refuse to let my profession run my life. I look and act very unassuming, and do so with a purpose.
July 19th, 2009 10:38 PM
So are you saying that ALL or even MOST of the LEO's that qualify at your range score 90% or above? Because if you are highly skilled or highly trained you should be able to do so. You also didn't mention the course of fire. Is it just punching holes it paper or do they use tactics? How many rounds do they fire? What is the minimum qualifying score?
Originally Posted by nedrgr21
July 19th, 2009 10:43 PM
i am surprised at this too..... around our area ALL the departments require them to carry off duty.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
Ruger LCP 380
NAA 22 mini mag w/holster grip
S&W 38 model 10
July 19th, 2009 10:48 PM
I don't get it either if you don't like guns why get a job where you have to carry one?
Originally Posted by retsupt99
July 19th, 2009 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by SIXTO
+1 in my short career and experience usually the guy who looks the least tactical and up on how to go home at end of shift and solve problems the most efficiently are the ones who are usually the absolute best at it. The gun is one of their least used tools. A gun is a wonderful thing amongst a large arsenal of tools on the "bat belt". But lets face it Batman is only successful because he knowss what tools are right or what situations and what he has under his mask. The storngest man is usually the one who does not throw a punch or in this case fire a bullet.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
July 19th, 2009 11:00 PM
Because guns are a very small part of the job. There is a whole lot more to it.
Originally Posted by Chiller2
July 19th, 2009 11:08 PM
I really like myself.
Originally Posted by Chiller2
Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.
July 19th, 2009 11:16 PM
Hey..I like you too.
Originally Posted by semperfi.45
In fact...I'd like to have a group hug with you and Sixto...
not too long though...
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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