"If drugs were legal, there would be nothing to fight about." - Page 4

"If drugs were legal, there would be nothing to fight about."

This is a discussion on "If drugs were legal, there would be nothing to fight about." within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by farronwolf So, are you all ready to make alcohol illegal again, because any argument against most of the drugs that are illegal ...

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Thread: "If drugs were legal, there would be nothing to fight about."

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    So, are you all ready to make alcohol illegal again, because any argument against most of the drugs that are illegal today can be made for alcohol as well.

    Lets see how well we can revert to a teetotaller society, and lock up all the drinkers.

    If not lets hear the argument why alcohol should be treated any differently than the other drugs and remain legal.
    Have you seen 'before and after' pictures of meth users? I may be wrong, but when I hear a news story about some guy stealing a power line (and risking electrocution) to sell the metal, my first thought is that he is a drug addict, not an alcoholic.

    Secondly, how many people have you heard of 'over-dosing' on alcohol? In my own experience with alcohol, (which is admittedly not that much) having a few too many just makes me tired. Too much wine? Time for a nap. Too much beer? "Wow, I'm soooo tired." I've never used drugs, but I'm guessing that doing a '6-pack' of crack puts me in great danger of permanent health consequences or death.

    Do you think most prostitutes are alcoholics or drug addicts? Look at your local correctional facility's webpage. Do the inmate's faces say 'alcoholic' or 'drug addict' to you? I don't understand why you believe that alcohol is the same as drugs...


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Alcohol is a drug, and it harms society. Anyone that thinks otherwise is just dead wrong. How many people die as a result of over dosing on alcohol, more than you think. How many die as a result of drunk driving, lots. How many die or are hospitalized as a result of being beaten to death by a drunk spouse, lots.

    The war on drugs has failed just like the war on alcohol did during prohabition. The onlly difference is that the American people are not willing to accept that no matter how much money is spent, no matter how many folks we put in prison as the result of manditory minimum sentences, you aren't going to stop drug use and abuse. Heck we can't even keep the drugs out of our prison system, we can't keep them from crossing the border, and we can't keep them from being grown in our National Forests or other public lands.

    And who said that the legal drugs would be available to children? I don't recall that being part of the OP. We don't make tobacco, or alcohol available to children, what makes anyone thing that legalization or decriminalization of other drugs would extend to minors? We have liquor stores or beer depots on ever corner, and most don't welcome children.
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  3. #48
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    In my younger years I was in favor of legalization... till I saw the experiment live and uncensored in Europe, Spain to be more specific. It failed catastrophically.

    Although drug use was supposed to be illegal, neither the courts nor the cops bothered with it. Hash, Pills, Heroin and coke were sold and consumed freely. You could walk the streets and have 4 pushes per block offering their product at competitive prices. But what totally killed me was the total disregard that users had for themselves. I cannot tell you how many people I saw shooting up heroin in plain sight like you and me would drink a cup of java from Dunkin. It is not a treat to see that process so many times you can do it with your eyes closed. The smell of pot and hash was constant everywhere you walked. I saw people totally spaced out in the middle of public squares or young girls prostituting themselves in the open (visible to God and Country performing sexual acts) so they can make some money and get the next fix. The only concession that junkies had for health issues was to stab used needles in trees, but the trees were literally covered in needles like some obscene urban porcupine. The last straw was seeing the morgue wagon doing regular rounds, checking for people that OD, retrieving the corpses and taking them away.

    Crime was rampant but the victims didn't even bother to call the cops and file a report because nobody cared. And even if the crime was bad enough that warranted PD intervention, the courts would take pity on the druggie, send him for a quick stay at the government rehab clinic and forget about it.

    Allegedly this was (now closed) Needle Park Switzerland.. that aint candy wrappers on the ground.


    This is an abandoned train station used by junkies


    PS: Alcohol is easy to acquire in Europe. Kids are raised drinking wine and families have wine delivery services like we used to have with milk here... or they just distill their own, even their own form of moonshine. And yes, alcohol abuse is bad in Europe, but it does not screw up lives as bad as the rest of the crap.
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  4. #49
    Member Array Astute's Avatar
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    We will never win the war on drugs as too many people make way too much money from the fight. Too many depend on this war for their paycheck.

  5. #50
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    FWIW, if you presently believe that an increase in drug crime (for any reason) would affect you or your family, it is probably irresponsible or foolhardy of you to live where you do. Drug crime, at least, tends to be (mostly) located in easily-identifiable neighborhoods.
    Sometimes people live where they do for reasons beyond their control and are powerless to change that.

    When I was in college I couldn't afford to live anywhere but where I did reside. All I had to do to see prositution and crack dealing was walk out of my rented abode. Living in a dorm, was not an option, as there were none available.

    Drugs effect every neighborhood in America and the legalization of it will not cure the problem, but only add to it. I am amazed at the naivete of some of the people that responded to this thread. Either that or they are already using, or wish to.

    Biker

  6. #51
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    Well I will make a comment based on my experiences as an LEO and as a parent. If anyone thinks access to drugs is difficult for kids, open your eyes, you are living in denial. You can walk into any middle school or high school in America and buy any drug you can think of. In many major cities you can also find it in elementary schools. I live in one of the safeast, most desirable cities in the country. Yet the kids in the schools here have access to anything they want, it's readily available and cheap.

    I would be for legalizing marijuana, but not coke, meth and the others and this is why... pot is a depressant, a sedative... I've never answered a call where a BG high on pot had robbed a stop-n-rob, assaulted someone or anything else. Pot makes folks sedate and mellow. It's also something natural, a plant that grows wild in many natural environments.

    Alcohol on the other hand makes people feel bullet proof and 10 feet tall, regardless of age. It makes you lose your inhibitions. Look at the numbers of DWI related injuries and deaths. 99% of stories I see where a drunk driver killed someone, the person is 25-40 and has had at least 2 previous prior DWI's.

    I would much rather see a guy high on pot driving down the road 30mph, thinking he's driving 100mph, than some idiot who's drunk running 100mph down the road thinking he's driving 30mph and running over everything in sight.

    If you think there aren't thousands, if not millions, of recreational pot users in this country, you are kidding yourself. They get up, go to work everyday, pay there bills, send there kids to college, etc... Just like there are millions of functional alcoholics in the work place everyday, doing the same thing. If they sit at home and smoke a joint or have a few drinks, what's the difference?

    We will never win the "War on Drugs", because people in this country like their freedom. It hasn't worked yet and will never work. We are filling up our jails and prisons, with people who have a couple of joints or a dime bag of coke, in their possession. The minor drug offenders, who are most likely young adults, are then exposed to real criminals and get an upclose and personal exposure to "How to be a Better Criminal 101", while incarcerated. This overcrowds the system and makes it necessary to early parole people, like rapists, murders, robbers, child predators, etc... along with the minor drug offenders.

    I seriously doubt that we would see any difference in our daily lives if pot were legalized.

    Btw, for the record, I don't use pot or any other illegal drug. I don't even drink. I'm also a staunch conservative.
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  7. #52
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    Well I will make a comment based on my experiences as an LEO and as a parent. If anyone thinks access to drugs is difficult for kids, open your eyes, you are living in denial. You can walk into any middle school or high school in America and buy any drug you can think of. In many major cities you can also find it in elementary schools. I live in one of the safeast, most desirable cities in the country. Yet the kids in the schools here have access to anything they want, it's readily available and cheap.

    I would be for legalizing marijuana, but not coke, meth and the others and this is why... pot is a depressant, a sedative... I've never answered a call where a BG high on pot had robbed a stop-n-rob, assaulted someone or anything else. Pot makes folks sedate and mellow. It's also something natural, a plant that grows wild in many natural environments.

    Alcohol on the other hand makes people feel bullet proof and 10 feet tall, regardless of age. It makes you lose your inhibitions. Look at the numbers of DWI related injuries and deaths. 99% of stories I see where a drunk driver killed someone, the person is 25-40 and has had at least 2 previous prior DWI's.

    I would much rather see a guy high on pot driving down the road 30mph, thinking he's driving 100mph, than some idiot who's drunk running 100mph down the road thinking he's driving 30mph and running over everything in sight.

    If you think there aren't thousands, if not millions, of recreational pot users in this country, you are kidding yourself. They get up, go to work everyday, pay there bills, send there kids to college, etc... Just like there are millions of functional alcoholics in the work place everyday, doing the same thing. If they sit at home and smoke a joint or have a few drinks, what's the difference?

    We will never win the "War on Drugs", because people in this country like their freedom. It hasn't worked yet and will never work. We are filling up our jails and prisons, with people who have a couple of joints or a dime bag of coke, in their possession. The minor drug offenders, who are most likely young adults, are then exposed to real criminals and get an upclose and personal exposure to "How to be a Better Criminal 101", while incarcerated. This overcrowds the system and makes it necessary to early parole people, like rapists, murders, robbers, child predators, etc... along with the minor drug offenders.

    I seriously doubt that we would see any difference in our daily lives if pot were legalized.

    Btw, for the record, I don't use pot or any other illegal drug. I don't even drink. I'm also a staunch conservative.

    Good post, pot is a gateway drug because kids are going to dealers to get it and get pushed into something alot more addictive.
    Leagalize pot, tax it and use that money to stop the hard stuff from getting in our country and to step up enforcement on meth.

    Pot is the largest cash crop in our country, use it to stop the rest.
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  8. #53
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Drugs effect every neighborhood in America and the legalization of it will not cure the problem, but only add to it. I am amazed at the naivete of some of the people that responded to this thread. Either that or they are already using, or wish to.

    Biker
    So anyone who wants to make drugs other than alcohol legal or decriminalized wants to use them, or already is. Hmm. Your probably right. Then that means that anyone who wants to keep them illegal just wants to protect their job because they aren't able to be gainfully employed doing anything else.

    Nope, neither argument holds much water does it.

    20 billion dollars spent every year on the war on drugs, and how much progress are we making?

    The marajuana being a gateway drug is pretty silly as well. If someone has the inclination to be on seriously hard drugs they are going to do it whether they start with a beer, a joint or sneeking into mom and dads prescriptions. There are millions and millions of folks that drink, smoke pot or whatever and don't become crack, meth or heroine addicts. Heck your lawyer, banker, doctor, nurse or maybe even boss might just be one of them, but function in society every day. Even Rush Limbaugh did it and most of his listeners were none the wiser.

    Here is a little tidbit from the DOJ with much more info contained in the reports. Bureau of Justice Statistics Drugs and Crime Facts: Contents


    Workplace
    A study focusing on findings from the 2002 through 2004 National Household Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) reported that --

    9.4 million (8.2%) of full-time workers were illicit drug users
    57.5% of illicit drug users, aged 18 to 64, were employed full-time
    Nearly one out of five (19%) workers aged 18 to 25 used illicit drugs during the past month. This was a higher percentage than among the 26 to 34 (10.3%), 35 to 49 (7%), and 50 to 64 (2.6%) age groups.
    Drug testing

    A total of 32 million (29.6%) of full-time workers in the United States reported random drug testing in their current employment setting during the study period.
    For each age group, past month illicit drug users were less likely than nonusers to report working for employers who conducted prehire drug or alcohol tests; ages 18 to 25 (29.4 vs. 41.3%); 26 to 34 (32.0 vs. 45.8%), 35 to 49 (34.2 vs. 45.5%), and 50 to 64 (31.3 vs. 41%).
    Occupations

    Illicit drug use among full-time employees were most prevalent in food preparation and serving-related occupations (17.4%), followed by construction and extraction occupations (15.1%).
    Among full-time workers, those in protective services occupations were least likely to be illicit drug users (3.4%).
    Source: U. S. Department of Health and Human Services, SAMHSA, Office of Applied Studies, Worker Substance Use and Workplace Policies and Programs. DHHS Publication No. (SMA) 07-4273, Analytic Series A-29, Rockville, MD, 2007.
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  9. #54
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    No disclaimer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    Btw, for the record, I don't use pot or any other illegal drug. I don't even drink. I'm also a staunch conservative.
    I think it is fairly safe to assume that everyone here who is licensed has at least managed to stay out of trouble long enough to pass their background check, and is therefore likely not a user of illegal drugs or someone who drinks to excess. There will of course be some exceptions, but certainly way less than in the general population.

    I'm making this point because I don't think it is necessary for those who think something different from what we do now should be tried regarding the drug problem need to disclaim that they are users.

    Those who post that the only people who want decriminalization are users are both incorrect and using an unfair tactic of accusation by innuendo.

    It is also not necessary to proclaim one's political affiliation, either way, to strengthen the argument. There are plenty of "conservatives" who say one thing in public and do differently in private (as we all know) and there are plenty of liberals who would never touch an illegal drug, go to work every day, pay their taxes, send their kids to school, pray to their deity, respect their fellow man, do their civic duty and more, and raise their kids to be good citizens.

    Finding a solution to the drug problem should not be an us v them political game. It is a national problem that needs some new and different approaches because almost everyone agrees the present approach doesn't work.

    There's no point to politicizing the discussion or to using slanderous innuendo against those who speak up for trying something different.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I dont know... Trash fights about anything. You know what they fight about most? ( that they call the police about anyway) is video games and their systems and cell phones. Its always the same.

    Both are legal products, but they do have value. And they fight over them. Keeping drugs illegal keeps the trash left in its wake hidden and at least somewhat under control.
    That about covers it, IMHO.

    At the street level/consumer level, as long as they want "it" (whatever "it" is) they will break the law to get "it", or more of "it."

    At the cartel level, they will follow the profit. There will always be something prohibited/in short supply/in demand/heavily taxed/etc that they can obtain/supply for a profit.

    FWIIW, there are always folk who like the illegal circus aspect and would rather go that route than the legal route. Two examples:

    1) In the '50s a man was stealing copper from a closed down hydro-generation plant. When arrested and tried, he put on a hard-luck story -- hungry kids at home, etc.

    The owner of the plant asked the judge to probation him and offered the perp a day job, helping salvage/demolish the same plant, making more that he was getting stealing at night. He quit in a week.

    2) In the '70s the police investigated a man selling mens, suits near the docks from the back of a vehicle. Turns out he was totally legit -- receipts for the suits from wholesale, business license, tax reporting, etc. He was just passing them off as stolen, and his customers were assuming that they were a bargain because of that.
    Last edited by DaveH; September 4th, 2009 at 03:22 PM.
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  11. #56
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    Don't believe SAMHSA

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Source: U. S. Department of Health and Human Services, SAMHSA, Office of Applied Studies, Worker Substance Use and Workplace Policies and Programs. DHHS Publication No. (SMA) 07-4273, Analytic Series A-29, Rockville, MD, 2007.
    Farronwolf provided provided "statistics" sourced from SAMHSA.

    For a variety of reasons I don't want to go into here, SAMHSA is not in my opinion a reliable source of these types of statistics. They have a mission, and publish what fits their purposes; same as DEA.

    If SAMHSA was honest in its goals they would promote hair, saliva, blood and sweat based drug testing instead of putting up impediments to the development, marketing and use of these alternatives to urine based tests.

    Data gathered on pre-employment positives by SAMHSA overstate the numbers because they include what they call "refusal to test," as positives. There are many reasons and circumstances in which a test may be "called" "refusal to test" which have nothing to do with drug use. SAMHSA has steadfastly refused to find ways to mitigate this problem. They like a high positive rate because it makes their program seem useful.

    For all of the testing that goes on, for all the public and private bucks spent testing, there hasn't been a dent in our national drug problem. SAMHSA and the ONDPA (Drug Czar) at the WH have remained clueless for decades. Or, more specifically, obstinate. And I know this from direct involvement with them, phone conversations, meetings, etc.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN
    ...Drugs effect every neighborhood in America and the legalization of it will not cure the problem, but only add to it. I am amazed at the naivete of some of the people that responded to this thread. Either that or they are already using, or wish to.

    Biker

    I don't mind being called naive. People said the same thing about me when I totally supported Peter Schiff, who was one of the very first to predict the United States housing bubble and subprime mortgage crisis. Mainstream media made him out to be a laughingstock.Turns out Peter Schiff was right on the money.

    I'm simply saying we need a different tack on the "war on drugs".

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  13. #58
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    Legalize and tax it!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  14. #59
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    Alcohol causes problems in our current society, but gangs aren't shooting people in the streets anymore to control the flow of illegal booze. They are, however doing exactly that over illegal drugs. And making tons of money doing so. Legalize pot for adults, at least, and it drops the profit margin down to the level of tobacco. It can't get any more available than it is now. Make the rest of the illegal drugs prescriptions, and treat addicts as having medical problems (which is what they really have). We spend Billions of $ and yet only stop maybe 10% of the drugs coming into this country. There is no other business that has a 90% success rate in the world.

    Anyway, that's my Libertarian view on it.

  15. #60
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    legalizing drugs may help for a little
    while but criminals go where the money
    is so if criminals couldnt make as much off
    of drugs they would still be violent and dealing
    something else illegal.

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