I almost shot an 11 year old boy

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Thread: I almost shot an 11 year old boy

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    Thank you for sharing that 64zebra... Time are for sure different now,...

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    thanks to all for the kind words, but keep in mind thats not why I posted this

    as for:


    If OC was legal in Texas I'm sure we'd get these calls from the uneducated, but handling that situation is WAY different than someone seeing a juvie pointing a gun at kids at a park then sticking it in his waistband, then trying to discreetly pass it to another juvie.
    Different calls, will be handled differently.

    OK....you say you understand the 'pulling part' (which I assume means the kid pulling the gun out his pocket) but you disagree with the almost shooting part
    So you think that cops should wait to have the gun pointed at them before they draw or wait until rounds are fired before they shoot? Do you know how many videos we watched in the academy (and you can google) where the cop hesitated drawing because he didn't think it was a real gun, real threat, or thought he'd be ok? Do you know how many cops have been killed because they didn't shoot soon enough, talked/gave way too many commands, etc? I have seen them, studied them, and learned from them. Maybe you should too.
    If he would have pointed the barrel at me I would have fired...period. We can't wait to see muzzle flash then decide ok its time to fire, that equals dead cop. If you think thats wrong then we'll just agree to disagree, but I won't stand for someone pointing a gun at me.

    If you disagree with my 'almost shooting' part you either have ESP, can see the future, or have 30x magnification eyesight that could see from 30ft away that it was not a real firearm.
    Your analysis is great in HINDSIGHT and for studying, but in the real world will get you killed, age is of no consequence....if a 8 year old shoots me or an 80 year old shoots me I'm just as dead. When I see someone producing a gun from their pocket I don't call time out and analyze the situation, I have to make a split second decision based on whats presented, and what was presented was a person with a blank stare on their face pulling a gun out of their pocket when I already had my gun pointed at them about to give them directions.

    If you want to bust my chops for almost shooting then fine, I've taken a lot worse than that before, I really don't care.
    I just won't go out by getting shot by a kid that I thought only had a play gun only to have a muzzle flash be the last thing I see on this earth, and I hope you don't either.

    As you said we could debate all day on whether I should have drawn at all, how I approached, what I said, etc, and I didn't post everything in detail for obvious (I hope) reasons....but it all comes down to I have a job to do....the kids were the ones making the mistakes being stupid. And yes I scared the crap out of them and I hope it saves their life in the future.
    Zebra, I think some are just trying to flame you, if not they are just having trouble with comprehension. Don't let a couple ruin your day, if your ever in the land of NY I'll buy you a frosty mug of whatever you want.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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  4. #93
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbass View Post
    I do carry. That doesnt mean i would draw on him.
    So do I (CHL), but let's ensure we're making an apples-to-apples comparison.

    IMO, it's irrelevant. You're not an LEO in the process of responding to a call about "man with a gun." Big, BIG difference.

    I, too, am "merely" a CHL citizen who would act differently in a situation where I see someone with a gun ... toy or otherwise. I'll be there, on the scene, and I'll be able to evaluate for myself what I've just seen over the course of the next few dozen seconds. I'll be able to identify the trend of actions and see whether that brief sighting was what it appeared to be, or was nothing to worry about.

    Inbound cavalry, however, do not have the luxuries you imagine, nor the luxuries I would have myself, on-scene.

    But here's the thing, and it cannot be ignored: If I have just gotten the attention of someone and the first thing I witness is a gun in the hand as the person turns and makes like I'm about to be targeted, you can damn well bet I'm going to take immediate precautions on the chance that it is what it appears to be at that moment. Why? 'Cause time is short, bubba. If it's real, than a bullet could come in a second or two.

    However, already being AT a place and having seen the potential "perpetrator" for awhile, I can be fairly certain that the person isn't a threat. I would laugh if told at that moment the person had been called into police as a "man with a gun." Being there, myself, I'd no such a call to be patently false, when asked if that call applied to this person I had been watching.

    Inbound cavalry doesn't have that luxury.

    In this specific situation as posted by the OP, the guns were drawn, yes, but the kid wasn't body slammed, cuffed and stuffed, and hauled into the booking room before it was all called a mistake. Within moments of the situation clarifying itself, the LEO was successfully able to make the distinction between a threatening "man with a gun" and a surprised-as-hell pre-teen that was merely caught in a very bad crossfire of mistaken opinions about what he looked like. Moments later, everyone was safe and knew it, though the dressing-down had just begun. Hopefully the learning continues, 'cause these sorts of mistakes are life-and-death type things. You can only screw them up once. There aren't any "do overs." That goes for everyone.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; September 24th, 2009 at 08:18 PM. Reason: clarity
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  5. #94
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    Zebra, thanks for doing what you do. If you ever get up this way 1st one is on me.

  6. #95
    Member Array Leopard125's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Not applicable as a question though.

    Civilians are not cops.
    Civilians drawing down randomly on people is not allowed, even if they did see some person walking around in a mall with a firearm or firearm facsimile.

    Police though they are imbued with legal rights of action, 'powers of police', that are very different and above that of what is deemed reasonable and lawful as in relation to civilians.

    If, being not a police, drove up on a kid say in my driveway or at a mall parking lot and noted him handling a firearm of some _indeterminable_ in the immediate moment...I would choose to NOT stop my car there muchless get out of it. Go elsewhere and park, if not contact the cops or possibly Paul Blart.

    How a police responds and is called to respond is completely and totally different than that of Joe or Jane Blow-Civilian.

    - Roscoe P. Coltrane
    It is applicable in My opnion,
    How would you react to someone with a gun at the mail?
    It's just a question nothing more nothing less.
    Altho I would have figured you would have known better than
    to clear your home alone. So If that bump in the nite would have been
    the 11 YO in question what would have happend?

    and no it's not My job to save the world, just Myself and mine.

  7. #96
    Member Array gilliland87's Avatar
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    That would be a scary situation.

    I am not far off of being that age. When we were younger paintball was all the rage. Most paintball markers don't look anything like a real weapon but we still used to carry all the gear in backpacks or duffles until we reached the wood's, then we would stop and gear up assemble guns ect. split off and go to town. The police in my town were very understanding and one officer even thanked us for the duffles one day.

    My condolences to you and the other officer in your squad, I can only imagine that scenario has run through your head a couple times with every what if you can imagine. Talking to the school security and resources officers was a very good idea in my opinion and a step over and above my kudos.

  8. #97
    Member Array Leopard125's Avatar
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    Red face

    Things aren't the same as twenty years ago.
    Where are the parents of this kid and why aren't We questioning
    their ablity to raise kids.
    I like guns and so does My family, We love to shooot together.
    But that in it's self dosen't let Me think that My children should be
    running around with toys that could get them killed by BG's or GG's,
    (NO billy you can't take your very real looking gun to the park and scare the crap out of your friends or enemys)

    I wonder what would happen moment(little billy ponders)as he carrys
    his toy to the park.

  9. #98
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopard125 View Post
    How would you react to someone with a gun at the mail?
    At the "mail." I'm assuming you mean at a "mall" of stores.

    For me, any response of mine depends on the nature of being "with a gun" and whether there's a direct threat to me and mine. It'll be highly dependent on the circumstances.

    I don't get the willies around firearms very easily. I grew up at a time when one or more kids carrying BB guns and similar items was common. In a mall, that's a bit strange, these days. So, certainly, I would be far more aware the moment that was seen. As with anything, any response depends on circumstances.

    I'm no cop. I'm not mall security. I'm a citizen looking to survive the day. Whatever helps achieve that is what will be done.

    If someone draws on me, though, that's a horse of a different color. Then, it is HIGHLY likely I will be taking precautions. "At the mall" or anywhere else, irrespective of size/shape/color of the perp(s). Same as always.

    I question my ability to direct kids, often. I question the ability of others to raise kids, as well, on a daily basis. Many folks give plenty of clues as to their inability or failings. Particularly when it comes to simple security/safety steps, most folks don't have a clue. Often when it comes to common sense with how to safely and effectively interact with others, many don't have a clue. A lot of people seem to be winging it. I was very fortunate to grow up amongst a smart and aware group of adults who taught us sensibly and well.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #99
    mkh
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    Zebra you did well. Stay safe and don't let this incident affect how you respond the next time.

    I am amazed at how many people on this forum actually get it. For the most part they have been very supportive and that is great.

    As for the few who didn't - you are wasting your time trying to explain to them. The life and death decisions that a LEO must make in a split second are as foreign to them as and television would be to a cave man.

  11. #100
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    People, this guy is just trolling you trying to get a reaction. He knows better, and is working you up. Don't waste your time with this guy.

  12. #101
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    I have refrained from posting in this thread, but not of being supportive of those that matter.

    Mr. Zebra, I'm glad you're OK and that things turned out the way they did. The first Iced Tea is on me bro'.

    Biker

  13. #102
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbass View Post
    Why would you shoot an 11 year old?
    Every criminal as far as I know started off as a baby. If you were in the same situation tell me you wouldn't shoot to save your life. Dead is dead and it doesn't discriminate by who's pulling the trigger. Way to interpret the situation Zebra. Glad everyone went home safe. Hopefully the parents will take the hammer to the air soft. My kid wanted one and my reply was "What for?" He's still waiting.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  14. #103
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vica153 View Post
    If some random person called and said the babe had an m4, the kid had a grenade, and the person in the wheelchair had a rocket launcher, would I draw on them without actually seeing the m4,grenade, rpg.....nope. Would you tell a private citizen they had reason to draw? Thats not the point here anyway.

    CCW is irrelevant. You're a LEO and obviously play by a different set of "rules". I think you rolled in a little hotter than necessary. That is all.

    I'm not the one on the streets everyday putting myself in harms way. No one was hurt. Alls well that ends well. Kumbaya.
    I think you are completely wrong but that is all. If that kid had a real gun and evil in his heart, not having pulled his weapon, we would have had a different posting from Zeb's family. That is all.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

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  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    People, this guy is just trolling you trying to get a reaction. He knows better, and is working you up. Don't waste your time with this guy.
    which guy are your referring to ?
    LEO/CHL
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    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
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    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    which guy are your referring to ?
    I am sure he is talking about the guy with the 9 post count. MB

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