July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA - Page 2

July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA

This is a discussion on July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA within the Member Meeting Place forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by DaveH Virginia's law on the issue is quite clear. A County CANNOT prohibit otherwise lawful open or concealed carry in their parks. ...

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Thread: July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Virginia's law on the issue is quite clear. A County CANNOT prohibit otherwise lawful open or concealed carry in their parks.

    What this "ordinance" says is you can't carry something like a sawed-off shotgun in the park. However, it is so couched in such convoluted legalize as to be read (even by some here) as saying "no firearms" -- hence a disreputable chilling effect on RKBA.
    Indiana passed the law last year to negate and prevent local governments from passing convoluted ordinance and local laws concerning public places that contradict state law exactly like the one you Virginia guys are debating.Of course we still have our silliness and limits like most states do,but passing that law made things alot simpler and made it much easier to obey the laws of the land.
    The easy way is always mined.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Not quite.

    The local "ordinance" says, "No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute [emphasis added]...."
    Dave i tried to PM you that info but there is no indication that you received it ,my reply box says i didn't send anything ,if you didn't get it let me know and i will post it on this thread.
    The easy way is always mined.

  3. #18
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    Thumbs up Good coverage

    Story in the Roanoke Times about the picnic:

    Gun rights group says Roanoke County law is confusing - Roanoke.com

    Gun rights group says Roanoke County law is confusing

    County officials say there is no problem with the law and no problem with protesters' picnic at a park.

    By Annie McCallum
    981-3227

    The pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League is planning a picnic Saturday with covered dishes of food - and firearms on the side.
    The group has organized the picnic in protest of a Roanoke County ordinance dealing with firearms in parks, which it says is intentionally confusing, something the county disputes.

    Members of the gun-rights group say what's on the books in Roanoke County is so confusing that people might think they cannot carry guns in parks and law enforcement officials might be unclear, too, potentially leading to an arrest when one isn't warranted. So the group is gathering in Green Hill Park on Saturday inviting people to bring food and firearms.

    SNIP

    ...Terrell Holbrook, the county's acting chief of police, said his department is aware of Saturday's protest and doesn't anticipate any issues.

    "I don't foresee of anything that would be a problem," he said. "I appreciate them letting us know."

    SNIP
    Looks as if we are educating the public.

    From some of the comments here even some folk up to speed on firearm laws were confused by the language.

    Any who were staying away, might want to reconsider, given all this publicity and acting chief of police's comment.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    The Original post does indeed appear to say that carrying in the part would be illegal.
    Then when you read this it makes it clear that is not the case.
    SNIP

    ...Terrell Holbrook, the county's acting chief of police, said his department is aware of Saturday's protest and doesn't anticipate any issues.

    "I don't foresee of anything that would be a problem," he said. "I appreciate them letting us know."

    SNIP
    This tells me that the City ordinance was written not to create a law but an effort to deceive citizens into believing that if they carried they would be in violation of the law. I see no difference between this and Cities that post no guns allowed signs at parks in clear violation of the actual laws.

    Its hard enough to keep up with well intentioned laws. Now we have to watch out for laws specifically intended to deceive and confuse the citizens.

    Michael
    DaveH likes this.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    The Original post does indeed appear to say that carrying in the part would be illegal.
    Then when you read this it makes it clear that is not the case.

    This tells me that the City ordinance was written not to create a law but an effort to deceive citizens into believing that if they carried they would be in violation of the law. I see no difference between this and Cities that post no guns allowed signs at parks in clear violation of the actual laws.

    Its hard enough to keep up with well intentioned laws. Now we have to watch out for laws specifically intended to deceive and confuse the citizens.

    Michael
    Yup!

    Wonder why they don't have any local ordnance saying " No person shall within a park drive a car as expressly prohibited by statute"?

    Wow think of all the other things that are illegal that they could write an ordnance to
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    So who is winning.... the we can's or the you cant’s

  7. #22
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    It appears the state has preemption. The ordinance is unlawful. Doesn't mean they won't arrest. Is a chance for someone to take it to VA Supreme Court.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    So who is winning.... the we can's or the you cant’s
    Hopefully, the public is the winner.

    At a minimum, all the publicity, should alert them that they can carry in the county parks. Then, we also know that the local LEO have been alerted that carry is legal in the parks.

    And we can hope that maybe, just maybe, the ordnance will get fixed.

    As it was the public was the loser -- because of the chilling effect of a poorly written (intentionally or not) ordnance.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    So who is winning.... the we can's or the you cant’s
    The people watching from the sideline waiting for the dust to settle.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  10. #25
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    Thumbs up Good publicity

    A right to picnic with firearms - Roanoke.com

    **
    Editorial: A right to picnic with firearms

    Gun rights advocates manufacture a controversy over a Roanoke County ordinance

    Tomorrow evening, gun advocates will picnic in a Roanoke County park. We hope the weather holds and they enjoy sunshine with their hot dogs and grandstanding.

    And there will be plenty of the latter to relish. These are the sort of people who show up at Denny's wearing weapons at their sides just because they can. Tomorrow they will exercise their right to do the same thing in a local park.

    The picnic is part rally to protest a county ordinance that allows people to carry weapons in accordance with state laws, including in local parks. They complain not about the content of the law but that it is confusing and might mislead people to think they may not carry their guns in parks.

    There is no pleasing some people.

    SNIP

    **

    ----------


    Blog discussion at: http://tinyurl.com/c33mfse


    ************************************************** *****************************

    FYI, my comments, so far:


    “It is true that the code is written in a legalese that lawyers love, but it says what it needs to say and in such a way that changes to state code will easily become applicable locally. ”

    ———

    So, you would understand, “No person shall within a park drive a car, as expressly prohibited by statute”?

    If the park ordinance “needs to say” anything about the Virginia’s law on firearms, then why isn’t a park ordinance on “driving a car, as expressly prohibited by statute” also “needed”?

    There is a plethora of State statutes that are “applicable locally” without any need for the locality to convolute the State statute’s meaning nor to confuse the public as to their application.

    Wow, think of all the other things that are legal that the County could write an ordinance to confuse the residents about.

    Hopefully, the public is the winner of this educational effort being mounted by VCDL.

    At a minimum, all the publicity, should alert them that they can carry in the county parks. Then, we also know that the local LEO have been alerted that carry is legal in the parks. IMHO, that is progress.

    And we can hope that maybe, just maybe, the ordinance will get fixed.

    As the situation was before this educational push by VCDL, the public was the loser — because of the chilling effect of a poorly written (intentionally or not) ordinance.

    As I posted on an earlier open thread, I’m just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    However, as I understand it, all VCDL wanted was that the language (which even you admit is confusing at best) be cleared up, so as to not confuse the public (and maybe LEOs) — as a result have a chilling effect on a Constitutional Right, as implemented by the State of Virginia.

    In my mind, any assumption of intent on Mahoney’s part is derived from the unwillingness of Mahoney and the county to clear it up and communicate the facts clearly to the citizens.

    The citizens deserve to not be lead astray, either intentionally or by misleading “legalese.”

    Comment by Dave Hicks — July 13, 2012 @ 11:52 am

    Re: Comment by Scott M. — July 13, 2012 @ 10:16 am and others.

    In that case, maybe the RT could advise the public about all VCDL’s regular picnics and meal-meetings that are routinely held here in the Roanoke valley and NRV.

    Comment by Dave Hicks — July 13, 2012 @ 11:59 am
    Re: Comment by gdad — July 13, 2012 @ 10:38 am

    #3 Michael, they WANT publicity. The worst thing for them would be for the paper to ignore it. The idea of the event is to get attention.

    ———
    Yup.

    IMHO, publicity of the actual rights that folk have here in Virginia.

    With out this publicity far too many were likely to be lead astray, either intentionally or by misleading “legalese.”

    Tell me gdad, did you realize before that you could carry a firearm in the parks? After reading the “legalese” of the ordinance, did you realize before that you could carry a firearm in the parks?

    IMHO, education is good.

    Comment by Dave Hicks — July 13, 2012 @ 12:13 pm
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    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    The people watching from the sideline waiting for the dust to settle.
    Yup.

    That is the way of life. The few carry the load for those watching from the sidelines.

    When a building is on fire, most run from it. Some, OTOH, run toward it.

    IMHO, without grassroot organizations carry the load for those watching from the sidelines, we'd still be a "May issue State."

    As always, YMMV.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #27
    VIP Member
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    Thumbs up I'm back home safe -- still in possession of my EDC

    I just got back from the picnic in a park where the local authorities were leading folk to think was posted.

    Over 100 folk there, nearly all armed, the majority OCing.

    The press (TV and paper) were there. The LEOs drove by a couple of times.

    Nothing happened -- except that the local citizens now have information that it is legal to carry OC or CC in the park.

    The only downside was dodging the thunder storms. Got cozy in the shelter for a while.

    Great food -- lots of good food. Good fellowship. Good Q&A about carry, VCDL, upcoming events, etc.

    Handed out quite a number of our where-you-can't-carry cards -- update to the new laws that went into effect 1 July.

    All-in-all, outstanding event!!!

    Quick TV clip here: Gun rights group is up in arms about Roanoke County law - wdbj7.com

    Remember that the local code that they say is clear that you can carry reads:

    “15-8 (6) Hunting and firearms. … No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute,....
    Who is going to read that as saying that you can carry?

    ------

    If there is follow-up publicity, I will update this thread.

    BTW, there are two more places in the works, where we might have to do a encore. Generally, we can talk some sense into the locality w/o a demonstration. But....

    If they develop, I'll advise.

    For details on one (Chesterfield County), see the 7/13 VA Alert at Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL)

    I and another member are working on the second one here in SWVA.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  13. #28
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    Glad it went well! Congratulations!

  14. #29
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    What station was it on and did it air so we can see it in a search or you tube

  15. #30
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    Exclamation Read Me First

    Read these before posting in this thread again.

    Open carry is a controversial subject, particularly when those that do OC do so specifically to garner attention to the practice. While we still discourage arguments over this topic, we will no longer offer "protection" for those who's practices invoke controversy. We now all stand on even ground but we will not hesitate to issue infractions for those that cross the line in comments and rebuttals.
    While our policy has been changed and we now encourage the posting of threads regarding open carry, we will continue enforcing our rules regarding civility within the forum. This forum will not allow the endless debate of "us vs them". We are all gun owners that believe in the right to carry, either openly or concealed and it's time that we start understanding that we are all on the same side. We are all responsible gun owners that follow the law whether we agree with them or not.
    If you have come to this sub-forum to whine and fuss against OC just leave now, or you'll be having a private chat with me.

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