July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA

July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA

This is a discussion on July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA within the Member Meeting Place forums, part of the The Back Porch category; [Re-posted from a VA-ALERT with prior approval of VCDL] [First person singular pronouns (I, my, mine, etc) and “PVC” reference Philip Van Cleave, President VCDL] ...

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Thread: July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA

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    Thumbs up July 14th -- “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County, VA

    [Re-posted from a VA-ALERT with prior approval of VCDL]


    [First person singular pronouns (I, my, mine, etc) and “PVC” reference Philip Van Cleave, President VCDL]

    Mark your calendars! VCDL is having an “Oh, yes we can!” picnic at a Roanoke County Park on Saturday, July 14th! Big turnout requested.


    HISTORY


    Roanoke has an ordinance on their books that is so poorly written as to be almost impossible to understand, but could easily be misconstrued to ban firearms in the County’s parks:


    “15-8 (6) Hunting and firearms. … No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute, or air rifles, spring guns, pellet guns, paintball guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device …”


    EM Ed Levine communicated on behalf of VCDL with the County to fix the wording, but the County Attorney dug in his heals claiming that the wording and intent was quite clear. Yep – clear as mud. The bottom line is that the County CANNOT prohibit otherwise lawful open or concealed carry in their parks.


    BIRTH OF A PICNIC

    What better way to get a clarification on that ordinance than for VCDL to hold a very large picnic in a Roanoke County park and let the police (and press) know we are doing so? The VCDL Board voted to hold and fund the picnic and you are invited!

    Thanks to Board member Al Steed Jr. for making the park arrangements.


    PICNIC DETAILS

    Where:

    Green Hill Park, Roanoke County
    2501 Parkside Drive
    Salem, VA 24153
    Shelter #2


    Directions/Map: MapQuest Maps - Driving Directions - Map


    When:

    4 PM to 9 PM, Saturday, July 14, 2012

    Please RSVP with number attending to Al Steed Jr. at:

    al@vcdl.org


    Food:

    VCDL will providing the food. However, if you wish to bring a covered dish to share, we would be happy to have it! Let Al know if you are bringing something so he can keep track of what foods will be available.

    ——————————————-
    See you there!

    BTW, VCDL does not take a position on Open vs. Concealed carry -- or even care if you attend our events w/o carrying. It's your call.

    However, safety mishaps, particularly with firearms, expose the organization to liability issues and could significantly damage VCDL's credibility as a gun rights organization. At all events, the rules and requirements of the sponsor/promoter shall be strictly observed.

    Therefore, whenever the owner/sponsor/promoter permits loaded firearms, and at all VCDL-sponsored meetings, events, or gatherings, loaded firearms shall NOT be handled at any non-range sites -- they will remain holstered or otherwise secured at all times.

    VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.

    (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right. VCDL web page: Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL) [http://www.vcdl.org/]
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    Veni, Vidi, Velcro


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
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    Turning over rocks and poking at snakes is a good way to get bit.

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    Senior Member Array ritepath's Avatar
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    Sounds like it's safer to geocache only at the park...

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    On July 14th atctimmy turns 40. : (
    A word of warning; if you can afford to do more Bear does not recommend giving your wife two pieces of bubble gum for her birthday.

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    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    On July 14th atctimmy turns 40. : (
    I will trade you birthdays.

    I will be 56 on September 11th of this year.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    On July 14th atctimmy turns 40. : (
    Storm the Bastille!
    atctimmy likes this.
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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayBar View Post
    Turning over rocks and poking at snakes is a good way to get bit.
    I had no problem understanding the language of the statute.

    I wouldn't go to that pucnic under any circumstances. I cannot afford an arrest on my resume.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    So, in VA there's state preemption of municipality/county ordinances except where authorized by law. And VA Code § 18.2-287.4 indicates carrying in public parks is unlawful except for (among others) folks with CHL. The question is, in VA is a local ordinance legally allowable that criminalizes carry of firearms in public parks??
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    So, in VA there's state preemption of municipality/county ordinances except where authorized by law. And VA Code § 18.2-287.4 indicates carrying in public parks is unlawful except for (among others) folks with CHL. The question is, in VA is a local ordinance legally allowable that criminalizes carry of firearms in public parks??
    Might want to reread 18.2-287.4

    It is about "magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person" in a limited / enumerated local jurisdictions -- of which Roanoke Co. is not one.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I had no problem understanding the language of the statute.
    Oh? What statute?

    Why would you think that you might be arrested for perefect legal carry?

    Where in "statute" are what guns etc "expressly prohibited"? [Clue: Localities do not adopt ""statutes" in Virginia. They adopt ordinance, resolution and motion. In Virgina law "statute" refers to State or Federal statutes.]

    So, in effect this County's local ordinance would apply to something like a sawed-off shotgun -- not to a firearm that one would legally carry in the anywhere else in the State.

    Hence, it is legal jargon to discourage / have a chilling effect on legal carry.

    FYI:

    LIS > Code of Virginia > 15.2-915

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.


    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.


    C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.

    [emphasis added]

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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Oh? What statute?

    Why would you think that you might be arrested for perefect legal carry?

    Where in "statute" are what guns etc "expressly prohibited"? [Clue: Localities do not adopt ""statutes" in Virginia. They adopt ordinance, resolution and motion. In Virgina law "statute" refers to State or Federal statutes.]

    So, in effect this County's local ordinance would apply to something like a sawed-off shotgun -- not to a firearm that one would legally carry in the anywhere else in the State.

    Hence, it is legal jargon to discourage / have a chilling effect on legal carry.

    FYI:

    LIS > Code of Virginia > 15.2-915
    It's really pretty simple. The "ordinance" says no firearms.

    The law on this isn't settled when you are saying one thing and the county attorney is saying another.

    Question 22.1 on form SF-86 asks if you have ever been arrested.

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    Distinguished Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    Indiana made a law last year that took the debate out of carrying in public places i read debate like this and it makes me glad that the law was passed.
    The easy way is always mined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    It's really pretty simple. The "ordinance" says no firearms.
    Not quite.

    The local "ordinance" says, "No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute [emphasis added]...."
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  14. #14
    VIP Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CIBMike View Post
    Indiana made a law last year that took the debate out of carrying in public places i read debate like this and it makes me glad that the law was passed.
    Virginia's law on the issue is quite clear. A County CANNOT prohibit otherwise lawful open or concealed carry in their parks.

    What this "ordinance" says is you can't carry something like a sawed-off shotgun in the park. However, it is so couched in such convoluted legalize as to be read (even by some here) as saying "no firearms" -- hence a disreputable chilling effect on RKBA.
    atctimmy likes this.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  15. #15
    Member Array MisterAvis's Avatar
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    as expressly prohibited by statute
    Where is the "statute" specifically prohibiting carriage described in the ordinance? The ordinance as written is conditional, not absolute.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

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