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man who claims selfdefense charged with murder 9 months later!!!!!

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Thread: man who claims selfdefense charged with murder 9 months later!!!!!

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Welcome from Central Texas!!!!!
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    i'll say it here too just like I did in the other thread. He should have gotten in his car and left the scene immediately. He had an avenue of flight.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    i'll say it here too just like I did in the other thread. He should have gotten in his car and left the scene immediately. He had an avenue of flight.
    It's been a little while since I learned this, so I'll try and be coherent. And I am going on the assumption that the shooter saw a knife in the attacker's hand, since I wouldn't have shot him in the first place if the attacker did not have a lethal weapon in his hand.

    When faced with an "immediate and otherwise unavoidable lethal threat," you are authorized to respond with lethal force. You are not required to choose the most correct way of responding or to try and use a less lethal option before using a lethal option. It is also my understanding that as of today, there are very few jurisdictions where you are required to attempt to flee first, in the face of an immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of lethal assault.

    The reason being is because by whose standards determines whether or not you had an opportunity to flee? And because it was so ludicrous to even have such a requirement, a lot of states are now even going so far as specifically state you do not have an obligation to attempt to flee. Hence the so-called "stand your ground" statute. Or they have modified their "castle law" statute to also include "anywhere you have a legal right to be."

    According to the the best friend of the defendant in his post on the VGOF forum, (and I'm taking it as face value), he stated that the attacker fell right at the front fender of the car after he was shot, and his friend quit shooting as soon as he was down on the ground. Now, if that's the case, (and going on the assumption he had a knife in his hand), and based on what I know about regarding the Tueller drill, that's a pretty immediate threat, and would be a toss up as to whether or not he could have actually gotten inside his car, closed the door, and lock it before the guy was on top of him, slashing him with his knife. I can tell you, at least for me, it's much quicker to reach into the back seat of my car and grab a gun sitting on the back seat (which also has been reported by his friend) than it is to try and get into the front seat, close the door, lock the doors and drive off. You would be trying to get inside while in panic mode, trying to get past a steering column and steering wheel, close the door and then trying to fumble and locate the electric lock button in a dimly lit car, at night.

    Now granted, I'm just throwing out a plausible scenario, having the faith that the factors related as facts are true.

    Again, I'm not one of those who advocate shooting unarmed people who want to kick my ass, and if the guy coming at me did not have a lethal weapon in his hand, I wouldn't have shot him in the first place.
    -Bark'n
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    I understand all of that bark'n, and I agree with you on being legally allowed to stop an "immediate and otherwise unavoidable lethal threat," but i am basing my comments on the fact that he had time to go to his car, retrieve a gun, tell the man to stop and then shoot him. Even if the attacker DOES in fact have a knife in hand walking towards the car, a car with the window up and the door locked would prevent a stabbing. If the BG escalates the situation by attempting to break the window, then it's on like Donkey Kong. This is also a situation where Castle Doctrine would apply 100% (being in the car). I'm thinking I can get into my front seat and lock the door faster than I can get into the back seat and grab a gun that is hidden or secured or wherever it is out of sight, but that's just me. Guess we should practice that drill as well.

    Again, this opinion is based on the news article written about this story in the other thread posted here. I have not read the older thread nor the posting by the friend.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    I understand all of that bark'n, and I agree with you on being legally allowed to stop an "immediate and otherwise unavoidable lethal threat," but i am basing my comments on the fact that he had time to go to his car, retrieve a gun, tell the man to stop and then shoot him. Even if the attacker DOES in fact have a knife in hand walking towards the car, a car with the window up and the door locked would prevent a stabbing. If the BG escalates the situation by attempting to break the window, then it's on like Donkey Kong. This is also a situation where Castle Doctrine would apply 100% (being in the car). I'm thinking I can get into my front seat and lock the door faster than I can get into the back seat and grab a gun that is hidden or secured or wherever it is out of sight, but that's just me. Guess we should practice that drill as well.

    Again, this opinion is based on the news article written about this story in the other thread posted here. I have not read the older thread nor the posting by the friend.
    I understand that... but what I'm saying is the law can't force you to take another option if you are authorized to use lethal force.

    It's arguable whether or not he could have driven away... Maybe he could, but if it's deemed he was facing a deadly threat situation, the law doesn't stipulate mandate you be forced or expected to try something else. Now granted, he may have a tough time litigating that, if that's what the prosecutor is attempting to tell the jury.

    If that were the case, No One would be allowed to use deadly force to defend themself, prior to getting pre-approval from a prosecutor or some designated committee.

    And also, AFAIC if the guy did not have a deadly weapon in his hands, the shooter wasn't facing a deadly threat.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I understand that... but what I'm saying is the law can't force you to take another option if you are authorized to use lethal force.

    It's arguable whether or not he could have driven away... Maybe he could, but if it's deemed he was facing a deadly threat situation, the law doesn't stipulate mandate you be forced or expected to try something else. Now granted, he may have a tough time litigating that, if that's what the prosecutor is attempting to tell the jury.

    If that were the case, No One would be allowed to use deadly force to defend themself, prior to getting pre-approval from a prosecutor or some designated committee.

    And also, AFAIC if the guy did not have a deadly weapon in his hands, the shooter wasn't facing a deadly threat.
    I have a feeling that none of this has anything to do with why he is now being charged with murder.

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Which makes me wonder, what really are the basis for the charges?

    other post.....rather explaines why seems different here.....time to re-group.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    I have a feeling that none of this has anything to do with why he is now being charged with murder.
    I agree. And like i said before, either in this thread or the other (I can't remember which), when people are trying to learn from real life events, it's very frustrating not having all the facts in the incident. Which of course, will always be impossible short of sitting right there in the court room for the duration.

    I just pray, I'm never the one sitting in the defendants seat if I'm ever in the court room.
    deadguy likes this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #24
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    Welcome...

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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Which makes me wonder, what really are the basis for the charges?
    This was a quote from one of the articles that stated what the charges were :
    quote : "charged with murder and the use of a firearm in commission of a felony"

    In the commission of a felony, self-defense typically is 'excluded' as a defense. You can't burglarize a house and when the home owner pulls a gun out, shoot them and claim it was self-defense because they thought the owner was going to shoot them.

    Since this originated in a bar argument, my first thought given those charges... was a drug deal where someone thought they had been cheated or a drug debt collection. If that lead to the argument, which led to the chase, and then he shot him in self-defense ............. many states exclude using a self-defense argument at that point. It's just like the "death" during the commission of a crime charge.

    But , I think that "quote" tells us.... a lot more was going on than what's been reported.

    Here, it clearly states that if you are the one who "provokes" and/or "initates" it.... you cannot use self-defense as a defense argument, even if they initiated it to the lethal threat level.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    So is "pooping kittens" a legal term? Just curious...

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array DaRedneck's Avatar
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    Jeebus, does anyone listen? If you are involved in a shooting you hardly talk to the police until you have lawyered up yet alone go posting all over the Internet.
    "He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    This was a quote from one of the articles that stated what the charges were :
    quote : "charged with murder and the use of a firearm in commission of a felony"

    In the commission of a felony, self-defense typically is 'excluded' as a defense. You can't burglarize a house and when the home owner pulls a gun out, shoot them and claim it was self-defense because they thought the owner was going to shoot them.

    Since this originated in a bar argument, my first thought given those charges... was a drug deal where someone thought they had been cheated or a drug debt collection. If that lead to the argument, which led to the chase, and then he shot him in self-defense ............. many states exclude using a self-defense argument at that point. It's just like the "death" during the commission of a crime charge.

    But , I think that "quote" tells us.... a lot more was going on than what's been reported.

    Here, it clearly states that if you are the one who "provokes" and/or "initates" it.... you cannot use self-defense as a defense argument, even if they initiated it to the lethal threat level.
    This is it right here I believe. The shooting was the end result of a different issue. Someone knew something and finally came forward. Guilt isn't always on the shoulders of the parties involved.
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