The effects of competitive shooting on muscle memory

The effects of competitive shooting on muscle memory

This is a discussion on The effects of competitive shooting on muscle memory within the New Members Introduce Yourself forums, part of the DefensiveCarry.com Forum Office category; Hello everyone,I'm new to this discussion forum. I've spent some time reading the information shared here,and am impressed with the depth of knowledge those of ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: The effects of competitive shooting on muscle memory

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    386

    The effects of competitive shooting on muscle memory

    Hello everyone,I'm new to this discussion forum. I've spent some time reading the information shared here,and am impressed with the depth of knowledge those of like mind share.My question is on the type of training to best prepare for an actual deadly force confrontation. Can the mixing of competitive shooting,i.e. IDPA,with your combat training, percentages of both being equal,or more on the competitive side,have negative effects on your muscle memory,and your reaction to a violent encounter?. We are all familiar with " you fight like you train". Your thoughts on this will be appreciated.Thanks,RayBar.


  2. #2
    VIP Member
    Array RoadRunner71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,384
    Welcome.

    Training and competing are certainly two different things. In competition, for the sake of range safety and other considerations, certain rules are enforced that maybe contrary to good self defense, aka actually fighting with a firearm. Competition is good for injecting stress and adrenalin into your system. Aside from actual combat there are few betters ways to experience those.

    Force on force training is probably the best thing for us, but that can be hard to find and finance on a regular basis. Certainly once you have a couple of those classes behind you, you could do some of the same on your own with a competently trained partner.

    Those are just some thoughts. I am sure the trainers and gurus will chime in soon and tell you I'm full of it. :)
    "Mind own business"
    "Always cut cards"

  3. #3
    VIP Member
    Array MrBuckwheat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Down Incognito
    Posts
    6,560
    Welcome from another match shooter>

  4. #4
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,635
    Welcome from the Richmond area.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

  5. #5
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    2,782
    Your first post, welcome to the forum.

    They say practice makes perfect but you can never really practice a real incident. IDPA and some of the other shooting opportunities will help with the mechanics but the process that goes on between your ears is hard to replicate with the proper input.

    In all of the shooting classes/training you already know you are there to draw and fire your weapon. In a real life incident you won't know its coming unless you are the aggressor.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florence, SC
    Posts
    7,967
    Welcome from South Carolina...
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio - USA
    Posts
    1,370
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner71 View Post
    Training and competing are certainly two different things. In competition, for the sake of range safety and other considerations, certain rules are enforced that maybe contrary to good self defense, aka actually fighting with a firearm. Competition is good for injecting stress and adrenalin into your system. Aside from actual combat there are few betters ways to experience those.

    Force on force training is probably the best thing for us, but that can be hard to find and finance on a regular basis. Certainly once you have a couple of those classes behind you, you could do some of the same on your own with a competently trained partner.

    Those are just some thoughts. I am sure the trainers and gurus will chime in soon and tell you I'm full of it. :)
    I'm no guru, and I'm not a trainer - but I certainly will say that you're *not* full of anything. I think you're spot-on, and I think you've offered excellent advice.

    I'm relatively new to "The Gun World," but I've done at least a decent amount of "defensive training." This past April, I was lucky enough to get in on a class with Bob Vogel. While the class is "defensive" oriented (Bob has been and is still an active LEO in his Ohio home, so he's definitely qualified in this regard, too), towards the end, because of the student demographics, we did get into a bit of gaming.

    After the class, my first thought was simply this: "do I need to start competing, in order to better my pistolcraft?"

    I posed this question to a few Forum communities, and the answers I received were all in the positive.

    Quite simply, short of someone actually shooting at you with live rounds, the stress of competition is going to be the next best thing to simulate that experience. Sure, Force-on-Force role-plays can get pretty intense, but when it comes down to it, your brain still knows that you're training - "Training-itis" can still manifest there.

    But like RoadRunner said, RayBar, you need to go into competition with your end-goal in-mind. For me, my end-goal is to learn how to to run my gun faster and better, to make my manipulations as well as movements more efficient. My goal is not to win competitions, and it's quite possible that some of my ingrained "defensive" habits will slow me down (for example, during the end-of-day stage that Vogel set up for us, I apparently was the only one to have run the stage while checking my six and dropping my muzzle to Sul - I didn't even think about it, it's just what I do, because that's what I've been taught to do at all these "defensive shooting" schools: a friend good-naturedly laughed at me afterwards, saying that I was super-tacticool, but that I'd probably lost time when comparing to my fellow classmates who were just blistering through the stage), but to me, that's OK. Similarly, while I was pretty slow through that stage (although I was on-par with other students at my level), I wanted my shots to really count. To me, based on my "defensive" training, misses are unacceptable, so I probably took more time than others, with my shots, and my targets downrange did reflect this conscious effort. I may not have been among the faster students to go through the stage, but I kept all but two shots in the "down zero" - and you know what? when penalties were added up, I actually didn't fare all that badly, because I kept my shots where it really counted.

    In any case, I've literally got "defensive" training classes booked through to August - like I said, I like to train.

    But as soon as I can, I'm going to start competing, because I've now seen what those guys can do with a gun, and I want that kind of speed and efficiency. I want to shoot better, faster, and the stresses of competition makes it the perfect place to learn how to do that.

    At the same time, it won't completely replace my "defensive" pistol training.

    More than likely, I will still try to attend at least one or two "higher-end" classes every year. Alternatively, I may start booking private (one-on-one or other low student-to-teacher ratio) training. In virtually all other top-tier activities, pricey "private instruction" is the norm rather than the exception. Why not shooting? As one of my friends/mentors suggested, for the $1300 that I'm spending in tuition for six days of instruction in a "class" atmosphere with Chris Costa this summer, I could have booked private all-day instruction, for two days, with Bob Vogel or the like. That's not to say that Costa is somehow inferior to Vogel, or the other way around, but it's to illustrate that we're somehow stuck in the mindset that "training classes" are elite, where the truth of the matter is that, often, in such classes, the better students actually don't get pushed hard enough. Individualized learning is probably a better bang-for-the-buck, no pun intended.

    This particular friend/mentor's suggestion highly mirrors that of RoadRunner's: compete (but with your specific goals in-mind so that you do not ingrain those "gaming" habits), form a local group to do drills learned from advanced training classes, and take an advanced class or two every year or every other year to refresh and keep up-to-date.

    That's definitely what I'll be doing.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    6,609
    Welcome to the forum from SW Ohio.
    Live to ride, ride to live. Harley Road King And keep a .45 handy Kimber Custom TLE II

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    386
    Thanks to everyone for the insight.I recognize the positive aspects of competitive shooting,learning to function under stress,the advanced gun handling,the balance between speed and accuracy etc.It's hard to slow down enough to use these competitions for defensive training,focusing on accuracy versus speed,using cover properly and so on .No matter what you tell yourself before the timer goes off,when it does,it seems you can't help but go all out,your racing the clock like everyone else.Thats not a bad thing,it just concerns me that I may be slowly building in a problem that won't show itself until real life happens.Thanks,RayBar.

  10. #10
    Member Array John123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    East texas
    Posts
    126
    I compete regularly and firmly believe it makes you a much more competent shooter;thus better prepared for a real confrOntation. But you still need to practice defensive drills in between matches.

    I'd say the worst thing you can do is start gaming your gear I.e. shooting soft loaded ammo, with barely enough velocities to punch through paper.... Using a gaming holster, the type where the gun just rests on top of it, etc...

    I always try to compete with what I use in real life. It hurts my times like others above have mentioned (I use a concealment mused holster for IPSC) and I also shoot my nightstand gun with Tac light attached. Obviously the light isn't used for competition and I could take it off, but why?

    I really don't care that a guy with a $5,000 tricked out 1911 shooting marshmallows out of a gaming holster is faster than me. He should be. I also see those really expensive competition guns crap out at the worst times because their tolerances are soooo tight. They are extremely accurate bit at the expense of reliability.

    As others have said compete how you fight, don't "game" anything and most important of all compete with yourself. Don't worry about what everyone else's score is, just try t be better than you were last week. And if you can, shoot IDPA, it is based more closely in reality. We don't have any IDPA matches so I shoot IpSC with the race gun guys. It's a lot of fun, a lot more run and gunning but there is no concern over concealment whatsoever. YMMV

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio - USA
    Posts
    1,370
    Quote Originally Posted by RayBar View Post
    No matter what you tell yourself before the timer goes off,when it does,it seems you can't help but go all out,your racing the clock like everyone else.
    Remember that you're racing yourself. Like John123 said above, you're just looking to improve your gun-skills, so you are, in-effect, your own par.

    If you've already ingrained good "defensive" skills, you should be fine. Like I said before, I've only been shooting (as in with a gun - not competing, I haven't even started that, yet) since November of 2010, and with even as few training classes as I've taken (I've logged about 90 hours worth of class time), I've so ingrained the need to constantly scan my surroundings that, as you've seen in my reply above, I automatically do so, even when there's no need.

    As long as you've properly established your fundamentals and you don't work against them by gaming your performance/gear, I honestly feel that you should be fine. Now, I know that what I think about it probably could matter less , but honestly, that's what my (much) more experienced friends, really good shooters, have advised me to do. After seeing what I did in Vogel's class, I'm firmly convinced.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    2,248
    Welcome from Missouri. Sounds like you will be a excellent addition to the forum which is ripe with exchanges of ideas, information, experiences, tactics and even humor.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

  13. #13
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,839

    Welcome...

    from Central Florida!


    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    13,687
    Quote Originally Posted by RayBar View Post
    Hello everyone,I'm new to this discussion forum. I've spent some time reading the information shared here,and am impressed with the depth of knowledge those of like mind share.My question is on the type of training to best prepare for an actual deadly force confrontation. Can the mixing of competitive shooting,i.e. IDPA,with your combat training, percentages of both being equal,or more on the competitive side,have negative effects on your muscle memory,and your reaction to a violent encounter?. We are all familiar with " you fight like you train". Your thoughts on this will be appreciated.Thanks,RayBar.
    I do think that interactive shooting skills will help anyone in a shooting situation. I highly recommend anyone who carries and is serious about it get involved with a local gun club, or try an IDPA, IPSC, or USPSA sponsored event to discover what's available. A lot cheaper than formal schooling and you will learn a lot. I am a member of a good club that holds many matches and activities. It's sort of the next level to the personal need for self protection and carry. You should do it at least once. Safety is first and foremost with all of the above mentioned venues. No negative effects will occur unless one decides to get into competition shooting as a competitive sport. Then, one needs to separate the competitive and the personal skills. There is a point where the individual needs to decide and separate competitive shooting with defensive skills. Your actual skills only amount to 50% of what you'll need in order to accomplish an end goal of survival. Your mind is the other 50%, and one can shoot steel all day long, or a paper target. Preparing oneself to kill another human being is not a game nor a competitive sport. Skills are one thing, mindset is another. When I do competition, I'm in the game.....shots count...time counts...etc. Hones my skills. My mindset for CC continues the minute I get back in the car from a match. I may be quicker and faster, but I still have to go back to killing someone who is threatening my life as opposed to downing steel targets or paper people with a two shot limit. In short.....getting involved in competitive shooting sports is a great way to grow.....but you have to have a good sized pot before you plant.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Really SW, Virginia
    Posts
    4,718
    Welcome from Southwestern Virginia.
    NRA Member
    Glock 26 XD9sc
    Ruger SR9c Ruger LCP

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

can muscle memory occur in shooting

,

competitive shooting and violent

,

effects of muscle memory and guns

,

how to develop muscle memory when shooting a gun

,

is jump shooting muscle memory

,

muscle memory and competitive shooting

,

muscle memory and competitve pistol shooting

,

muscle memory shooting competition

,

negative effects of competitive shooting

,

pistol shooting drills uspa

,

shooting competition ideas

,

smith and wesson/muscle memory

Click on a term to search for related topics.