Bad:KY Woman Raped After Opening Door - Page 2

Bad:KY Woman Raped After Opening Door

This is a discussion on Bad:KY Woman Raped After Opening Door within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER KralBlbec .....can census workers CC??? I know i would....

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  1. #16
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER View Post
    KralBlbec .....can census workers CC??? I know i would.


  2. #17
    Member Array merischino's Avatar
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    KalBlbec - can you please explain to me why you cannot ignore a census worker like you can a vacuum salesman?

    I have never in my life heard of any law requiring a person to open their door. Having had the unfortunate experience of being stalked in the past, I am a person who currently does not open the door for anyone unless that person is both expected and can give me a name that matches with the one I expect.

    A census worker will guaranteed not meet my requirements for opening the door. I will not open the door for someone claiming to be a census worker under any circumstances - my requirements would be such that s/he give me a name, rank, serial number, name of boss (no phone number thankyouverymuch -- if I can't call a number I find published in the phone book and arrive at that named boss, I'm not interested) and then wait however long it would take for me to verify that personage.

    IT's my guess that this procedure would be one that said census worker would choose to circumvent by simply calling in the police and charging me a fine for the difficulty I provided.

    I would really like to understand what law/statute exactly requires me to open my door for a census worker. I do not have any hatred towards census workers, I just happen to live in a world where evil lurks and where more than once I have refused to open my door to people who could not or would not explain to my satisfaction who they were or why they were knocking on my door.
    People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
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  3. #18
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merischino View Post
    KalBlbec - can you please explain to me why you cannot ignore a census worker like you can a vacuum salesman?

    I have never in my life heard of any law requiring a person to open their door. Having had the unfortunate experience of being stalked in the past, I am a person who currently does not open the door for anyone unless that person is both expected and can give me a name that matches with the one I expect.

    A census worker will guaranteed not meet my requirements for opening the door. I will not open the door for someone claiming to be a census worker under any circumstances - my requirements would be such that s/he give me a name, rank, serial number, name of boss (no phone number thankyouverymuch -- if I can't call a number I find published in the phone book and arrive at that named boss, I'm not interested) and then wait however long it would take for me to verify that personage.

    IT's my guess that this procedure would be one that said census worker would choose to circumvent by simply calling in the police and charging me a fine for the difficulty I provided.

    I would really like to understand what law/statute exactly requires me to open my door for a census worker. I do not have any hatred towards census workers, I just happen to live in a world where evil lurks and where more than once I have refused to open my door to people who could not or would not explain to my satisfaction who they were or why they were knocking on my door.
    The guys on the ground dont have the authority to send the police out. Thats what my boss does. They would just mark you down as a refusal then send me out. If you refused me I would send my boss out. Refuse him and it gets ugly. If you call the local census office (which you can find from the website. It won't be in the phonebook because it wasn't esablished when the book was issued.) they should forward you on to the crew leader.

  4. #19
    Member Array merischino's Avatar
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    What do you guys to do identify yourself for folks like me who have suffered from violence in the past and are only interested in preventing that from happening again (which statistics show overwhelmingly it does, to victims of stalking)

    And I'll ask again, is there a law that makes it illegal to refuse to open one's door to someone who does not properly identify themselves?
    People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merischino View Post
    And I'll ask again, is there a law that makes it illegal to refuse to open one's door to someone who does not properly identify themselves?
    Yes.

    Do I have to talk to the census taker?

    Yes. Your participation in the 2010 Census is vital and required by law, (Section 221, of Title 13 of the U.S. Code). However, rather than rely on criminal charges, the Census Bureau is very successful in getting participation by explaining the importance of the questions we ask and how the information benefits our communities.

    Source - What is a Census Taker? - 2010 Census
    Title 13

    Sec. 221. Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers

    (a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.

    (b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a) of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is false, shall be fined not more than $500. (c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body.

    Source confirmations -
    * US CODE: Title 13,221. Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers
    * 13 U.S.C. 221 : US Code - Section 221: Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers
    * U.S. Code
    2010 Census Constituent FAQs
    http://2010.census.gov/partners/pdf/ConstituentFAQ.pdf

    But once again Census people do not show up at folks doors at 10:45P and upon knocking they can and will positively identify themself as being agents of the US Federal government by clothing and ID...Which is what everyone should do as before running to open their door at any time of the morning, day or night. As well a visual ID of the person at your door through a window or peep hole will give some indication as to who is there.

    Open the door to a census taker and open doors for your community.


    By being counted you are standing up for what your community's needs are. That's why census takers are so important. A census taker is a person from your community who is hired by the Census Bureau to make sure that your neighborhood gets represented as accurately as possible. The census taker's primary responsibility is to collect census information from residences that have not sent back their 2010 Census form.

    * The Census Bureau provides the census taker with a binder containing all of the addresses that didn't send back a filled out census form
    * The census taker then visits all of those addresses and records the answers to the questions on the form
    * If no one answers at a particular residence, a census taker will visit that home up to three times, each time leaving a door hanger featuring a phone number; residents can call the number on the hanger to schedule the visit

    The census taker will ONLY ask the questions that appear on the census form.

    Source - http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/census-taker.php
    Participating in the census is and has always been important, for everyone.

    - Janq

    P.S. - It is and has long been a federal crime as per the US Code to attempt to intimidate, attack or interfere with the work or process of action of a Federal employee as when that person is working on behalf of the Federal govt.
    Same rules apply to a Census worker that apply to a USPS worker, NPS employee or an FBI employee/agent. They all do different jobs but they singularly are representative agents of the US govt. and to that end are protected by law (US Code) against being interfered with.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #21
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    Janq, nice choice in the kitchen knives.

  7. #22
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    So the FBI & a Census worker shows up at my door. With the FBI, I have the right to remain silent. With the Census worker, I must answer all questions including SS#'s on the whole family, salary info, etc. Info I don't share with most of my own family, I have to give a stranger. Wow, I thought according to the Contitution they just needed a headcount. Don't they already have most of this info through the IRS? Why the need to give it to another branch of Gov't, just to have those laptops stolen/hacked and all that info jeopardized?

    Regards,
    Josh

  8. #23
    Member Array merischino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Yes.
    Actually, my question was not answered by all of your lovely quotes, although I appreciate the effort you took.

    Nothing in what you posted answers the question of how they are required to identify themselves to me as being the persons they claim to be, which was an integral part of my question.

    Certainly, I would not lie to or deny the process being carried out by any representative or agent of the US Government. FBI agent, police man or woman, or US Census taker. That wasn't my question.

    My question remains unanswered: How does a responsible, tax paying, law abiding citizen who does not open doors for people who "claim" to be something without proving it, know that a US Census taker is who they say they are?

    I happen to have already returned my 2010 US Census survey, so they will not be coming and knocking on my door. The question remains, however -- what evidence of obstruction of justice (or whatever it was, Janq, that you were implying I would be guilty of) would be present if someone claiming to be federal agent/police man/Census Taker (my specific question) was asked by me to please verify that fact prior to my opening the door?

    I do not feel it is an unreasonable question. It would certainly be easy for someone to claim they are a census taker to gain access to your home at any time of day inclusive of full daylight. Merely looking at a person through the window will not tell you if they are a criminal vs. a census taker.

    I have read plenty of news reports across the net, but certainly several right here on this forum of folks who dress like FBI agents or police offers, carry badges and the usual getup and upon gaining access tot he house raid it and commit violent atrocious acts against the people who opened the door.

    I am not a paranoid woman. But if a strange person shows up on my doorstep, even one dressed in a uniform, I do not think I would be guilty of a crime by asking for verifiable identification and going and making a phone call prior to opening my door.

    So, I will ask again. What would the recommendation be for a person who has learned through the school of hard knocks to not open doors to strangers at any time of day, what to do when the claim by the door knocker is that they are a census taker?

    - Janq

    P.S. - It is and has long been a federal crime as per the US Code to attempt to intimidate, attack or interfere with the work or process of action of a Federal employee as when that person is working on behalf of the Federal govt.
    Same rules apply to a Census worker that apply to a USPS worker, NPS employee or an FBI employee/agent. They all do different jobs but they singularly are representative agents of the US govt. and to that end are protected by law (US Code) against being interfered with.
    I never claimed I had a plan to intimidate, attack, or interfere with the work of a federal employee. I simply stated I wanted independent confirmation that they are indeed a federal employee. What is the crime in that?
    People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
    - Abraham Lincoln

    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
    - Winston Churchill

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    merischino,

    I'd hard quoted the specific question you asked as in your own words;

    "And I'll ask again, is there a law that makes it illegal to refuse to open one's door to someone who does not properly identify themselves?"

    The answer is yes and I provided hard evidence toward same.

    Asking how to ID a census agent is a whole different question entirely, although I did touch on that item too in my response but you seem to have overlooked...



    Census Bureau workers carry special identification tags similar to the one pictured here.
    If you are in doubt about a representative’s identity, a toll-free number is available for you to call for verification.

    Image source - http://www.associatedcontent.com/ima...ex.html?cat=17

    ...Census fraud has been a very real danger almost since the inception of the idea. Whether that fraud be located around a certain group’s political ambitions or an individual’s lack of morality and need for a quick buck, one must be wary of any meeting or letter claiming to be of or from the U.S. Census Bureau.

    It is a federal offense for anyone to pretend they represent the Census Bureau, or any other office of the United States Government for that matter. While many may fear the potential horror stories that may arise from a false Census prophet visiting their door, the fact of the matter is that, by necessity, the Census is a very simple process, making a fraudulent representative quite easy to spot.

    True tests

    First and foremost, a true Census representative will never ask to be allowed into your home. If a Census rep makes such a request, red flags should begin to fly immediately.

    When the 2010 Census takes place, you will receive a letter from the Census Bureau Director with notification that your household will receive a form in the mail or a phone call from the Census Bureau, or a visit from a Census Bureau representative.

    If this form has not arrived and a visit is made, request to see the agent’s official Census identification. This badge will be an official ID with only the agent’s name. You may also ask to see a second picture ID; if the representative is from the Census Bureau they must provide you with a second ID upon request. Also, some Census workers are required to carry “U.S. Census Bureau” bags.

    An official agent of the U.S. Census will ask about the following 10 topics: number of people in residence, whether the residence is owned or rented, a telephone number for follow up purposes, names of people in residence, the sex of all in residence, ages and dates of birth of those in residence, ethnicity and whether some or all of those named have additional residences...
    Source - Locals offer tips to avoid Census fraud - Grand Traverse Insider - Morning Star Publishing
    Even more info that was a quick & easy find as direct from the agency...

    Hilda Dimmock

    Chief, Decennial Data Collection Branch
    Field Division

    February 23, 2010

    Nonresponse Followup Discussion at the 2010 SDC Steering Committee Meeting

    A typical day for a NRFU Enumerator includes:

    * Enumerators will carry a Census shoulder bag, Census ID badge and will be instructed to always provide contact information to confirm their identity.

    * Enumerators identify themselves to each respondent by displaying their Census ID badge and giving the respondent a D-1(F), Information Sheet, which contains the Confidentiality Notice.

    Source - http://www.census.gov/sdc/hilda.ppt
    And more info on same as for operators/managers of apartments and condominiums; http://www.nmhc.org/Content/ServeCon...entItemID=5555

    - Janq
    Last edited by Janq; April 2nd, 2010 at 02:16 AM.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #25
    Member Array 55spartan's Avatar
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    All hard working contributing Americans should fill out the Census. Or would you rather the lazy, hand-out, leeching people just fill them out so they get more representation in Washington. I heard one source quote that 8 out of 10 of our southern bordering neighbors that are here now are filling them out. Do you want Spanish to be the mandatory language where you live, they get the representation that will happen.

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    I've got to agree with merischino here. I've already returned my Census form by mail, so if someone shows up claiming to be a census employee I'll be highly suspicious. I'm not exactly friendly when I become suspicious.
    People I don't know, knocking at my door at late hours, don't get a response. People who don't get the hint, get to meet the local police.
    Looking at Janq's photo of the ID they carry, it looks very easy to make a fake copy. You would have to get dangerously close to identify the seal.
    Should someone show up claiming to be from the Census, simply tell them to leave a form in the mailbox, you will complete it and return it by mail. If that doesn't satisfy them, I would call LE immediately.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  12. #27
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    I really did not intend for this post to degenerate into a debate about the Census and the workers. My appologies.

    The main point I wanted to hammer home, is that we need to be wary of those who come calling late at night, and not simply opening up the door when we do not know what is on the other side. Common sense should prevail in cases just like this.

    I work for an elected official going to residential and commercial properties for the purpose of appraisal. That puts me into the same situation as the Census workers, but we do not go out at night. We also carry identification, drive vehicles with county license plates and have clothing with the logo of the official and office. If someone refuses to answer our questions about their real estate, we leave immediately and estimate the information. So I cannot see how the Census workers fit into the category of a late night attacker.

    A simple situational awareness rationale is needed. Not paranoia or irrational thinking that each and every knock at the door brings evil. The woman who was attacked did not use her good judgement in this case plain and simple and has paid a heavy price for not using it.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

    The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Rugergirl,

    Don't just look at the photo...Read my post with items as directly quoted.

    Persons will not be contacted at their door out of the blue.
    Those selected for direct interview will be contacted first before hand as by mail to indicate an appt. pending.
    Further when the person arrives they will have both an ID as well as a Census.gov bag and various federal forms pertaining to the census.
    This is all stated in my quote, as from Census.gov (!).

    Also if upon visit confirmation is desired that too can be made by way of a toll free number the Census worker will have and can provide you (by talking through the closed & locked door) to confirm that persons status as being a real census worker.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #29
    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Sorry to have kicked up a storm here
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Persons will not be contacted at their door out of the blue.
    Those selected for direct interview will be contacted first before hand as by mail to indicate an appt. pending.- Janq
    Yes they will and no they wont. Most people will get theirs in the mail and that is the end of it. Some areas are not expected to respond (due to lack of response 10 years ago, social/economic status of the area/illegal residency). To those areas there is NO communication in the mail unless they have another residence that has mail being forwarded.

    [QUOTE]I've got to agree with merischino here. I've already returned my Census form by mail, so if someone shows up claiming to be a census employee I'll be highly suspicious. I'm not exactly friendly when I become suspicious.
    People I don't know, knocking at my door at late hours, don't get a response. People who don't get the hint, get to meet the local police.
    Looking at Janq's photo of the ID they carry, it looks very easy to make a fake copy. You would have to get dangerously close to identify the seal.
    Should someone show up claiming to be from the Census, simply tell them to leave a form in the mailbox, you will complete it and return it by mail. If that doesn't satisfy them, I would call LE immediately./QUOTE] Since you have already turned in your form, it is likely anyone you see is a fake. For others who are getting it door to door, the census taker will not leave the form with you, and definitely not in the mailbox (its illegal for anyone other than a postal worker to put anything in there, including us.) If you got a bad feeling about them, by all means call the cops on them. Its happened to my crew already and the cops *should* know enough to identify them. I'd rather you call them and catch a crook than let him go on.

    So the FBI & a Census worker shows up at my door. With the FBI, I have the right to remain silent. With the Census worker, I must answer all questions including SS#'s on the whole family, salary info, etc. Info I don't share with most of my own family, I have to give a stranger. Wow, I thought according to the Contitution they just needed a headcount. Don't they already have most of this info through the IRS? Why the need to give it to another branch of Gov't, just to have those laptops stolen/hacked and all that info jeopardized?
    There are no questions on the general form about SS# nor salary. Those operations working with such info are voluntary (as far as I know). Most of the questions are the same ones that they have been asking from the beginning except for origin, which was added in 1970. The Consitution gives the mandate to conduct a census, but it doesn't define what the census is. Its up to Congress to determine that part.
    The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.
    There is actually no information on the census that I couldn't find out about a person in half an hour google search starting with just a name.

    As for the time, that really depends on the neighborhood. The people doing it are usually working within a few blocks of where they live and know a lot of the people already. Some neighborhoods don't go to bed until late (or early) and 10:45 is a perfectly acceptable time for them. I told my guys I don't want them out after 8 for their own safety, but people are different everywhere.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KralBlbec View Post
    Sorry to have kicked up a storm here

    Yes they will and no they wont. Most people will get theirs in the mail and that is the end of it. Some areas are not expected to respond (due to lack of response 10 years ago, social/economic status of the area/illegal residency). To those areas there is NO communication in the mail unless they have another residence that has mail being forwarded.
    That much goes without saying.
    You can't pre-contact by mail a person with no valid/active mailing or forwarding address etc.

    I'm operating on the assumption that merischino has a valid mailing address, and that it is not a PO box....Which of course some folk rural and urban do have.

    Anyway the bottom line is toward her questions and concern plural, a census worker is readily identifiable AND can be confirmed as such in the immediate by the homeowner without specific need to open their door.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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