MD - Frostburg State Student: Shooting Was Self-Defense

This is a discussion on MD - Frostburg State Student: Shooting Was Self-Defense within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I know MD is a anti gun state so they are going to burn him. So my question is, if this happened in a different ...

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Thread: MD - Frostburg State Student: Shooting Was Self-Defense

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    Member Array JXONE's Avatar
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    MD - Frostburg State Student: Shooting Was Self-Defense

    I know MD is a anti gun state so they are going to burn him. So my question is, if this happened in a different state would he be protected by the castle doctrine?



    A 21-year-old Glen Burnie man is now accused of*shooting two Frostburg classmates, one of whom died.* Derek Valcourt has the latest on the shooting that's rocked the campus.

    Tyrone Hall told police he shot the police in self-defense after those unarmed men, both members of the basketball team,*lunged at him.* Police say they aren't buying it and that what Hall did amounts to murder and attempted murder.

    At Frostburg State University, many students are stunned by the early Sunday morning shooting.

    "Everybody's talking about it," said one student.

    Police say 21-year-old Tyrone Hall, originally from Glen Burnie, shot two fellow students in their stomachs.* Brandon Carroll, 20, died; Ellis Hartridge was rushed into surgery and is expected to survive.

    "I heard a shot go off," said John Pierce.

    Pierce lives in the apartment above Hall.* He heard the commotion.

    "I opened up my window because I guess it happened outside.* I could hear the guy across the street screaming at him.* The police showed up two minutes later," Pierce said.

    Police say the shooting happened after the two basketball players and a third friend went to Tyrone Hall's apartment to confront him at four in the morning, accusing him of assaulting a young woman at a party earlier that night.

    "From the interviews we conducted with witnesses, we were led to believe that she had had or was having a relationship with both Ellis Hartridge and Tyrone Hall," said police investigator Jon Dudiak.

    "I want to assure everyone that Frostburg State*University is a safe campus and that this was an isolated incident," said Frostburg State University President Jonathan Gibralter.

    Isolated but still devastating for this tightknit, small university campus where students are already planning a candlelight vigil and memorial for Carroll.

    "I'm graduating and this time of thing doesn't happen in Frostburg and it's really sad to leave the school on this note," said one student.

    Police are still investigating where Hall got the shotgun.* For now, he remains in prison without bail.

    Tyrone Hall graduated from Mt. St. Joseph's High School in Baltimore in 2007.* Administrators there say they are praying for Hall and*the victims.

    I know MD is a anti gun state so they are going to burn him. So my question is, if this happened in a different state would he be protected by the castle doctrine?

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    Member Array Adameeski's Avatar
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    TN castle doctrine wouldn't apply since it appears to have happened outside of the apartment. Not sure if this happened on campus or not, but TN doesn't allow firearms on school campuses with the exception of picking up or dropping off students, in which, they can not be handled.
    ...Adam

    "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." --Winston Churchill

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    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski View Post
    TN castle doctrine wouldn't apply since it appears to have happened outside of the apartment. Not sure if this happened on campus or not, but TN doesn't allow firearms on school campuses with the exception of picking up or dropping off students, in which, they can not be handled.
    I cannot determine whether the incident happened inside or outside the apartment or whether the apartment was on campus.

    However, when considering that the assailants were attempting to enter the apartment at 4:00 a.m., the defendant will have a chance to establish a self-defense, with or without the castle doctrine. The test will become that of reasonableness. The law does not require that a person submit to a violent whipping before defending himself. True, that is cowboy lore, but the test of real life is whether there was a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury.
    Live every day so that you can, with a clear conscience, look all men in their eyes and tell them to go to hell.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    3 guys go to his apartment to confront him,not a good idea,if the girl was assaulted you call the police,sounds like they went there to cause trouble and found it.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Member Array Adameeski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    I cannot determine whether the incident happened inside or outside the apartment or whether the apartment was on campus.

    However, when considering that the assailants were attempting to enter the apartment at 4:00 a.m., the defendant will have a chance to establish a self-defense, with or without the castle doctrine. The test will become that of reasonableness. The law does not require that a person submit to a violent whipping before defending himself. True, that is cowboy lore, but the test of real life is whether there was a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury.
    Very true, but that will be up to a jury of humans to decide. That is why, castle doctrine or not, I will not open my door and definitely will not go outside if I believe there is an immediate threat. They would have had to knock down my door, in which they would have been quickly shot, or have waited out there for the cops to arrive 'cause I dial 911 first. I have a hard time with people saying "I defended myself because I had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury" when they opened their door to a threat or walked outside to face a threat. I carry a gun where the law allows, always. If anything, it makes me more aware of my surroundings and less likely to put myself in a situation where I need to use it.

    Of course, I really know very little about this specific situation. All I know is, per the OP question, if he was indeed outside and had it been in TN, the castle doctrine would not have applied. Self defense, possibly, but not Tennessee's castle doctrine.
    ...Adam

    "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." --Winston Churchill

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    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Not in Georgia. Not on the facts that have been presented. The shooter would be arrested and the DA would charge him with two counts of Aggravated Assault.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
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    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    im a little confused my the info presented in the article there.
    was he in his apartment or outside it?
    having someone 'lunge' at you unarmed is a tough call for self defence. certainly could be, but again hard to say without more info. if that is the case, castle docterine plays no role here. only fear of death situation.
    also, this was on campus. are you allowed to have guns there?
    if he was illegally carrying a gun in a parkinglot on campus then obviously hes in trouble. cant say im for or against the guy with the info presented. could very well have been murder for all i can tell.
    most states the castle docterine law is more or less just that if someone is in your house without your permission, you are justified. would have nothing to do with the person lunging or not. but agian, from what i read it doesnt look like it was inside a home
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
    Georg Büchner

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    3 guys go to his apartment to confront him,not a good idea,if the girl was assaulted you call the police,sounds like they went there to cause trouble and found it.
    Bingo.

    Additionally I would not open my door at 4AM to unexpected knocks.
    I'm asleep...Even if I'm awake/awakened.

    A similar deal happened here in MA at UMass by a young man defending himself against two non-student trespassers who prior had been yelling racial epithets at him as they saw him through a window.
    They gained entry to the dorm building and went to his room.
    He took a beating to the face in the hall of his dorm and into his room before retreating to grab a 'hunting knife (per the local media) and he went to cuttin' his attackers up Mike Myers style.

    The university burned him and the state threw the young man under the bus. Prior he had been a model student majoring in biology.

    I'd personally donated money toward his defense case last year.
    The first and only time I've ever done so for anyone.

    Jason Vassell - Google Search

    This Frostburg case will go same.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    What a sham. MASS is one of the few states that has disparity of force as an affirmative defense on its books. I would think it would fit the facts of the Vassell case.

    ETA: OMG what the prosecution has done is JACKED UP. They crucified that young man.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
    Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep and yup.

    : |

    My wife as a constant argument against my practice of carry and even keeping arms at home for defense is that being a negro male (she's white) ...with a gun, knife and OC...will just about have me _doomed_ if ever I find myself in a position of need to defend myself.

    Doubly so she says if by my own presentation of national, regional and state criminal victimization stats that I suffer attack by another minority.
    Negro males statistically speaking without regard for age (15- > Senior citizen) or state/regional location in the US suffer as victims of crime much greater than any other group of any sort....And most often by statistics our attacker is a fellow minority male.

    To her view my thoughts to carry and keep arms for defense is a non-starter because in the eyes of a judge, jury and the media too there is pretty much nothing I can say or do before, during or after that will change the view of guilty regardless of situational innocence. I'd just be another 'Black guy with a gun' and assumed short tempered violent blood thirsty beast man.
    So she says don't carry or keep arms because the cost otherwise is too great.

    Sadly case historys and media as well as social norms support her view and position.
    This latest case with the student defending himself will be played out same. Guaranteed. :|

    But to that I say it's better to be able to , fight, survive and stay alive...to odds on see yourself hung.
    Than to just lay down and agree to die right out without a fight.
    My wife though, she and very many others of our nations so called 'peers' they do not agree.

    The realitys of life, living, law, enforcement....And judgment days.

    - Janq

    "That's just the way it is. Some things will never change..." - Bruce Hornsby, 'Mandolin Rain'

    "There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That’s a good religion." - Malcolm X, "Message to the Grass Roots," speech, Nov. 1963, Detroit (published in Malcolm X Speaks, ch. 1, 1965).
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    When I lived in Boston (JP), some of my cohorts used to say the same. That it didn't matter what was deemed justifiable by the law; if it ever came down to a critical incident in which I deployed my firearm, the law won't be used to show justification (for me) because I'm brown skinned. Well. I don't share that view of the CJ system; it is flawed and overstressed but not completely broken. Its better to put up a fight than to wait for great harm or death anyway. After all, you have to live before you can consider the legal aftermath.

    I don't know about the Hall case though. At best, it seems to me that Hall was afraid of taking some licks and that's why he shot. "Lunging" at a person puts them in fear of death or great bodily harm? That's a little too much to swallow. Worse, he could have just shot those two and concocted the lunging story afterward. I mean, by going on what is in the news story, I wouldn't have a problem indicting him if I were asked to be on the GJ.

    In Georgia, for castle doctrine to be appropriate, you have to be in your home or place of business, their has to be forced entry involved, AND there must be a belief that the intruder did so to commit a forcible felony. The possession of a weapon by the intruder immediately satisfies the last component. So, you just can't haul off and shoot some neighbor-kid just because he walked into your house without permission, or shoot a demented elderly person who successfully breaches your door thinking your home their own just because they forced their way in, or shoot a family member cause you became enraged at him while in your home. All three conditions must be met. In the Hall case, at least one, if not two, conditions were not met by the circumstances of his case.

    Obviously, if a person randomly begins attacking you in your home, you have the right to defend yourself regardless of how they made entry or whether they are a stranger or a guest. But "lunging" is not an attack that warrants *deadly force* in Georgia.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
    Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed...This items details are right now sketchy.

    But Hall has one really big thing going for him; Disparity of Force

    He versus two large males (basketball players are neither small nor weak) and an unknown physicality third man.

    Knowing no more about this story than what is reported in the OP I won't and can't call it.
    But I am 99% sure regardless of what the circumstances may have been even if he was justified to act (fly on the wall God's eye view), he will be found guilty and spend the rest of his life among hell.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Yep. More than likely guilty + substantial jail time, especially since the accused and the deceased shared a love interest.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
    Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

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    Member Array CplVargas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adameeski View Post
    That is why, castle doctrine or not, I will not open my door and definitely will not go outside if I believe there is an immediate threat. They would have had to knock down my door, in which they would have been quickly shot, or have waited out there for the cops to arrive 'cause I dial 911 first. I have a hard time with people saying "I defended myself because I had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury" when they opened their door to a threat or walked outside to face a threat.
    Reminds me of my thread about that loud drunk guy outside my apartment who broke a car windshield. My fiancee called 911 and I stayed inside watching him.

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    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Yep and yup.

    : |

    My wife as a constant argument against my practice of carry and even keeping arms at home for defense is that being a negro male (she's white) ...with a gun, knife and OC...will just about have me _doomed_ if ever I find myself in a position of need to defend myself.

    Doubly so she says if by my own presentation of national, regional and state criminal victimization stats that I suffer attack by another minority.
    Negro males statistically speaking without regard for age (15- > Senior citizen) or state/regional location in the US suffer as victims of crime much greater than any other group of any sort....And most often by statistics our attacker is a fellow minority male.

    To her view my thoughts to carry and keep arms for defense is a non-starter because in the eyes of a judge, jury and the media too there is pretty much nothing I can say or do before, during or after that will change the view of guilty regardless of situational innocence. I'd just be another 'Black guy with a gun' and assumed short tempered violent blood thirsty beast man.
    So she says don't carry or keep arms because the cost otherwise is too great.

    Sadly case historys and media as well as social norms support her view and position.
    This latest case with the student defending himself will be played out same. Guaranteed. :|

    But to that I say it's better to be able to , fight, survive and stay alive...to odds on see yourself hung.
    Than to just lay down and agree to die right out without a fight.
    My wife though, she and very many others of our nations so called 'peers' they do not agree.

    The realitys of life, living, law, enforcement....And judgment days.

    - Janq

    "That's just the way it is. Some things will never change..." - Bruce Hornsby, 'Mandolin Rain'

    "There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That’s a good religion." - Malcolm X, "Message to the Grass Roots," speech, Nov. 1963, Detroit (published in Malcolm X Speaks, ch. 1, 1965).
    I hope you never have to defend yourself but if you do I hope your wife is wrong.

    Of course you could always move down here to Tennessee if you could find a job in your profession. You might find it a refreshing place to live.

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