Arlinton TX Teen shot by off duty Houston Police Officer.

This is a discussion on Arlinton TX Teen shot by off duty Houston Police Officer. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The news media went nuts yesterday when this story broke. They were reporting thiis like the Houston Cop went nuts and killed this defensless teen ...

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Thread: Arlinton TX Teen shot by off duty Houston Police Officer.

  1. #1
    Member Array Curt58's Avatar
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    Arlinton TX Teen shot by off duty Houston Police Officer.

    The news media went nuts yesterday when this story broke.
    They were reporting thiis like the Houston Cop went nuts and killed this defensless teen for no reason.
    But today part of the true story comes out.
    Mansfield Summit teen shot by Houston officer is recalled as a respectable student | Arlin...

    I wonder what the rest of the story is as the Houston Officer has not been charged for the death of this upstanding citizen.
    I've heard it was called a good shoot.

    Also, It seems his older brother was also shot and killed in 2007.
    So the acorn did not fall far from the tree in that family.

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    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    Most likely the kid didn't believe the guy was actually a police officer and refused to drop his weapon. Probably thought he was a rival gang member imitating a police officer.

    Can't blame the officer for his actions. Confronted by someone with a handgun and refusing to put it down after repeated requests and having identified yourself as Law Enforcement usually ends up this way.
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    Seems like there shouldn't be much question as to why the teen was shot. He was noncompliant with a Police officer and had a visible firearm. THat's recipe for disaster.

    Question is, what had the teen so upset that he couldn't comply? Strange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    Seems like there shouldn't be much question as to why the teen was shot. He was noncompliant with a Police officer and had a visible firearm. THat's recipe for disaster.

    Question is, what had the teen so upset that he couldn't comply? Strange.
    Based on the article it not clear who is who or what actually happened. Off-duty, okay, in that part of the country today anyone can pretend to be a cop or whoever. As for the teen, he was crazy to be carrying, that it simple. Bad all the way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Star-Telegram
    Mansfield Summit teen shot by Houston officer is recalled as a respectable student
    By NATHANIEL JONES, TRACI SHURLEY and ELIZABETH ZAVALA
    Star-Telegram staff writers

    ARLINGTON -- Principal Lamar Goree recalled Clevonta Reynolds from the hallways of Mansfield Summit High School and on Tuesday called the 18-year-old "a very respectable student."

    Goree said Reynolds wasn't known for discipline problems and was well-liked.

    On Monday night, a witness said, the teenager was carrying a gun when he refused an off-duty Houston police officer's repeated orders to drop the weapon.

    The officer, identified Tuesday as Rafael Baez, 40, shot Reynolds multiple times, authorities said.

    Reynolds was pronounced dead at 6:54 p.m. Monday, according to the Tarrant County medical examiner's website. He lived in Arlington about four miles from where he was shot at the intersection of Juniper Drive and Winterberry Court in southeast Arlington.

    His mother, who was at their home Tuesday morning with other relatives, declined to comment.

    Reynolds is a younger brother of Sam Houston High School football player Quintarick Wilson, who was fatally shot in 2007 during a party at an east Arlington home, a family member said.

    Before the confrontation between Reynolds and Baez, several girls in about eight cars had met at the intersection and were fighting, a neighbor said. He requested anonymity for fear of retaliation.

    "They were just whupping up on each other," the neighbor said. "All of a sudden the cop comes out of nowhere, shouting, 'Break it up. I'm a police officer.'"

    Nearly half the cars scattered, but Reynolds stayed, the neighbor said.

    After that, "I couldn't really make out what the two were saying to each other," the neighbor said.

    The neighbor said he saw the teen grabbing for what looked like a long-barreled revolver from his waistband and heard the officer repeatedly identify himself.

    Reynolds "just kept pacing back and forth behind a car and wouldn't follow the officer's orders," the neighbor said Tuesday. "You could see he had a gun in the front of his baggy pants."


    The neighbor said he hurried his wife back inside the house and did not see the shooting. He went back outside later and saw one of the first Arlington police officers to arrive turn Reynolds' body over and remove the gun from his pants, the neighbor said.

    Arlington police spokeswoman Tiara Ellis Richard confirmed that a weapon was found on Reynolds' body.

    No disciplinary actions

    Baez, who is assigned to the northeast patrol division of the Houston Police Department, has been on the force for 17 years, said Kese Smith, a Houston police spokesman. Baez was to be placed on three days of desk duty, which is standard for all officer-involved shootings, Smith said.

    "We will wait until Arlington finishes their investigation. Then our internal-affairs division will meet with officer Baez," he said.

    Records obtained from the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education show no disciplinary actions, suspensions or revocations in Baez's file

    A licensed peace officer appointed to any recognized agency may make arrests anywhere in the state and has the authority to carry a weapon, whether on duty or not, said Kim Vickers, director of education and credentialing with the commission.

    "A peace officer has the duty to protect, to take action," he said, adding that "a duty to be an officer doesn't go away when you leave the county where you work."

    The incident

    According to police, Baez was inside a residence with family members when they heard what sounded like a vehicle slamming into a parked vehicle outside the house and then driving away. Baez and others ran outside and pursued the vehicle on foot to try to get its license number when they came upon the girls fighting at the intersection, Richard said.

    There, a person who left the house with Baez had some kind of encounter with people at the intersection who police believe may have gang affiliations, Richard said. At that point, Baez stepped in, Richard said.

    A police report lists a Jose Baez, 29, as a victim in the incident. His relationship to Rafael Baez could not be learned Tuesday.

    At Summit High, "it's a somber day," Goree said. "It's a sad day, a sad situation."

    The school brought in extra counselors to talk with students who were upset.

    At the time of Quintarick Wilson's death, police said his shooting was gang-related. The family has maintained that neither Wilson nor Reynolds was a gang member.

    Reynolds' younger sister also attends Summit, Goree said.

    Read more: Mansfield Summit teen shot by Houston officer is recalled as a respectable student | Arlin...


    It doesn't really matter what the kids past is. Could be class valedictorian for all that matters. What does matter is what happened in this incident.

    Kid had a gun... Refused lawful commands of an officer (doesn't matter if kid believed he was a cop or not)... Officer felt threatened... Officer shot the kid with a gun! (at age 18, it's really splitting hairs whether to call him a kid or a man)

    I would be hard pressed to believe it wasn't justified! (Personally, I'm surprised the officer didn't shoot him the moment he drew his gun from his waistband instead of allowing him to pace back and forth refusing further commands to drop the gun!)

    You carry a gun in your waistband, you accept certain responsibilities and consequences.

    If I'm carrying a gun and I refuse an officers lawful commands because I don't believe he's a real cop... I'm probably gonna get shot. If I shoot the guy because I didn't believe he was a cop and I later find out he was... Well, I'm gonna be in prison for a very long time.

    As far as I'm concerned, the off-duty cop was justified.

    Yes, it's always tragic, and often causes a commotion in the community when what appears to be an otherwise, pretty law abiding kid with a decent past does something stupid likes that and get's killed. Senseless really. But no different than the stupidity of same otherwise law abiding kid getting drunk and then gets killed in a fatal car crash.

    Doing stupid things has consequences! Sometimes life ending consequences.
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Ex Member Array WhoWeBePart1's Avatar
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    I'm sure he was just a good kid trying to get a good education so he could move up in the world and become successful. He just needed the firearm for personal protection from the real bad people who where trying to harm him and keep him from accomplishing his goals.

    Sadly this will never happen now because he refused the orders of an off duty officer. Those 17 year veterans always look like real young gang bangers who figure they can off a rival by pretending to be an off duty officer.

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Who knows, since his brother was shot and killed, he might have wanted to go out the same way? Death by COP. Its been done many times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoWeBePart1 View Post
    I'm sure he was just a good kid trying to get a good education so he could move up in the world and become successful. He just needed the firearm for personal protection from the real bad people who where trying to harm him and keep him from accomplishing his goals.
    Sadly this will never happen now because he refused the orders of an off duty officer. Those 17 year veterans always look like real young gang bangers who figure they can off a rival by pretending to be an off duty officer.
    ^^^^^^^^^^Alright^^^^^^^^^^

    Thats pretty good!
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  10. #9
    Member Array Curt58's Avatar
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    If you go to the Houston PD Web Site you can read most of the new reports about this incident.

    Houston Police Officer Jobs : Texas Law Enforcement Careers and Requirements

    I read all I can find to piece the facts and possible rumor together.
    Here's a run down of my research.

    This boy scout was a member of a gang fighting with bats with another gang in a nearby City Park.
    They chase each other into an adjacent neighbor hood where someone in the ruckus hits a parked car with their car.
    Several of the combating Gang Members are armed!
    The commotion in the neighborhood street brings out the residence.
    The Houston Cops brother receives a beat down and by the time the smoke clears he is transported to the Hospital for his injuries.
    The Policeman clearly identified himself as Law Enforcement numerous times. The boy scout, a sophomore at a local high school, is carrying a revolver in his baggy pant which he reaches for on more than one occasion. (Don't know if he was ever able to retrieve said weapon from his pants without loosing them.)
    This boy scout has already lost his older brother in 2007 to another gang related shooting.
    The Coroners early release report cites three gunshot wounds. Not six. Three in, three out! Itís obviously more sensational to report six holes as shot six times, as it makes the young man seems more a victim. Don't know what the Officer was shooting, but the boy scout wasn't able to stop the projectiles inside his body.
    The boy scouts family members are crying murder. They are saying the Officer did not have to shoot the young man who obviously threatened the Officers life convincingly that the Officer felt he too was in enough danger to use deadly force.
    The gunshots ended the Gang War immediately.

    Obviously being 18 and a sophomore in High School, has not registered with the media that something is not kosher with this Adult Gang Member, who was packing a weapon.

    What you want to bet he wasnít licensed to carry? Obvioulsy!


    I'm sure there is a lot more to this than has been written in the News Media. And a lot more NOT Written in the Media.

    You will notice I used the term boy scout (notice not capitalized, out of distain) in reference to the deceased, fine upstanding young adult entrepreneur High School Sophomore, but I mean no offence to the real Boy Scouts of America whom I have a LOT of respect for.

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    Nice boys, Mr. 'Princial', do not walk around on the streets with a gun in their waistbands. Others heard and saw what took place...I see no problem with this shoot.
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    Member Array PaxMentis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I would be hard pressed to believe it wasn't justified! (Personally, I'm surprised the officer didn't shoot him the moment he drew his gun from his waistband instead of allowing him to pace back and forth refusing further commands to drop the gun!).
    I agree with just about everything and there is only one little nagging "bother" that I would need to know more about.

    The witness reportedly said the first officer at the scene removed the gun from the kid's belt...I really hope he also saw the kid's hand on the gun just before the shooting...it would make everything so much easier since the gun was obviously not drawn if this witness is correct.
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I've got just three comments...

    'You live by the sword, you die by the sword.'
    'You mess with the bull, you get the horns.'
    'You got to know when to hold'em. Know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run.'

    And another 'angel' bites the dust.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    i don't know the full story. i really hope the officer was in the right, if not, i'm all for some greece-style anarchy. that "comply or die" ******** you people spout off is absurd.

    I'm sure he was just a good kid trying to get a good education so he could move up in the world and become successful. He just needed the firearm for personal protection from the real bad people who where trying to harm him and keep him from accomplishing his goals.
    That kid was clearly troubled. Who in their right mind thinks they need to carry a gun for defense? Much less believe that they should be able to defend themself period! Thats what the police are for!

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaxMentis View Post
    I agree with just about everything and there is only one little nagging "bother" that I would need to know more about.

    The witness reportedly said the first officer at the scene removed the gun from the kid's belt...I really hope he also saw the kid's hand on the gun just before the shooting...it would make everything so much easier since the gun was obviously not drawn if this witness is correct.
    It doesn't really matter whether the kid had his hand on the gun or not. As long as he made what is considered a "Furtive Movement" towards the gun. We already know by witnesses that the gun was visible inside the waistband.

    Officers have been cleared of shooting a suspect based on their "furtive movement" even when the officer did not know for sure they had a gun or not. In this case, it was apparently obvious, at least to other witnesses the kid had a gun in his wasitband.

    (Not to hijack this thread, I just want to post something I found on a self defense blog about furtive movements to maybe help those who has never heard of such a thing)


    Twarting The Furtive Movement
    "A furtive movement in such cases is a movement reasonably consistent with going for a weapon and not reasonably consistent with anything else under the circumstances.

    "The law does not demand that your perceived antagonist have a real weapon in order for you to employ lethal force in self defense. It only demands that his actions create in your mind a reasonable and prudent belief that he has a weapon. If he is close enough to employ such a weapon, and if his actions are consistent with an armed person trying to kill you (Diallo turned suddenly and thrust the hand with the black object toward the officers), then the requirements have been met for you to justifiably use deadly force in order to defend your own life."

    "Skulking in the Vestibule" by Massad Ayoob

    A couple of notes on the furtive movement:

    1. It cannot possibly be construed as an innocent gesture;
    2. Nervousness alone does not constitute furtive movement. "Furtive" means means secretive or concealing. "Suspicious" is not the same as "furtive".
    3. The way you need to think about it and articulate it is that the attacker is trying to conceal or hide a movement toward a weapon or to otherwise set up an attack. This can include the famous "pretend-to-walk-away-and-throw-the-big-haymaker-punch".

    Unfortunately, there is a large grey zone here. The movement toward drawing a gun from a back pocket or the back of a waistband is exactly the same movement someone would make toward their wallet. The movement toward drawing a knife from a front pocket is exactly the same movement one would make in pulling out their keys.

    Be careful on your instruction here. I actually had someone tell me their instructor taught that the palm position of someone reaching toward their back pocket determined if they were going for a wallet or a weapon. Meaning, while reaching toward their back pocket, was the subject's palm facing in (toward his own body) or facing out.

    This instructor's theory was that, if the subject reached back with his palm in, he was reaching for a wallet. If he reached back with his palm facing out, he was reaching for a gun.

    Interesting...

    First, if you can actually tell which way the guy's palm is facing during your encounter, you are awesome.

    Second, when reaching for a gun in the back waistband, it is entirely dependant on how the grip is facing as to whether the guy is going to reach with his palm in or out.

    The infamous case in point for this argument would be the Diallo case noted by Ayoob in his quote at the start of this section. On February 4, 1999, four NYPD Street Crime Unit cops mistakenly shot and killed Amadou Diallo, firing 41 shots and hitting him 19 times. Diallo ran from cops and suddenly whirled around a pulled out a black object. The cops "saw" him pull out a gun and opened fire. One cop, Ed McMellon, began backing away from the danger and fell, convicing the three others that he had been shot.

    After Diallo was down, Officer Sean Carroll checked him and found -- to his horror -- that Diallo had simply produced a black nylon wallet.

    The officers were acquitted because the totallity of the circumstances and the way in which Diallo turned and thrust out the wallet which would be consistent with a fleeing criminal turning and pulling a gun.

    The training key here is to practice with your partner drawing and presenting a variety of weapons or to attack with a strike. You should practice being the attacker and the defender. It will become more apparent that -- as the attacker -- you'll have to maneuver yourself into a certain range or posiiton to attack. As the defender becomes more and more practiced to the various attacks and his radar is up, you'll find it more and more difficult to successfully attack him.

    The successful defense against a weapon is to interrupt the presentation (the draw) before the weapon is out and pointed at you. The successful interruption of the presentation will be dictated by knowing what a furtive movement looks like so you can instantly react to it.

    These defenses are part of the Defend University weapons defense module which are currently being taught to security and executive protection operators. Plans are underway to present them in an instructional DVD format in the future.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Bark'n. ^^

    When stopped/approached by police with guns drawn, period, you yourself FREEZE.
    As in cease all movements but to breathe and move your eyes, so as to look at the ground where you will be next.

    They tell you to do something then well you do it and that means COMPLY...IMMEDIATELY.
    Not think about it and pace back & forth pondering wheher or not you are being disrespected. You do it and do it NOW!

    Do not know and adhere to this, and well you takes yer chances.
    Better be wearing Under Armour or some other such Superman Underroos because the heat is gonna come in T minus...

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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