BAD--Know your target and what lies beyond it

BAD--Know your target and what lies beyond it

This is a discussion on BAD--Know your target and what lies beyond it within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Woman Killed by Stray Bullet After Robbery || WXYZ.com | WXYZ-TV / Detroit | Detroit News, Weather, Sports and More DETROIT (WXYZ) - A 65-year-old ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array DM2's Avatar
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    BAD--Know your target and what lies beyond it

    Woman Killed by Stray Bullet After Robbery || WXYZ.com | WXYZ-TV / Detroit | Detroit News, Weather, Sports and More


    DETROIT (WXYZ) - A 65-year-old woman was killed Wednesday afternoon when a stray bullet came through her home.

    Detroit police officers say it happened after a robbery and carjacking on Evergreen near Pickford on Detroit's northwest side.

    A man who was watching over an abandoned house was forced inside the home and robbed.

    The robber then ran outside and attempted to flee. The crime victim who has a concealed weapons permit ran after the carjacker firing his weapon.

    A woman living on the next street was hit and has died from her injuries.

    Detroit assistant police chief Ralph Godbee says the robber legally is responsible for the woman's death, because his actions caused this.

    The suspect who fled the scene is described as an African American who is in his late teens or early twenties, has a light complexion, braids and a goattee. He is also about six feet tall. He was apparently bleeding from a gash on his forehead.

    Police are still questioning the 65-year-old crime victim who fired the shots.

    Apparently the robber had a fake weapon, but that doesn't matter legally, the victim thought it was real.
    DM2
    "I did the thing I feared the most. Excuse me while I cheer. Now here I stand a stronger soul and all I lost was fear." ...Anonymous


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    The robber then ran outside and attempted to flee. The crime victim who has a concealed weapons permit ran after the carjacker firing his weapon.

    A woman living on the next street was hit and has died from her injuries.

    Detroit assistant police chief Ralph Godbee says the robber legally is responsible for the woman's death, because his actions caused this.
    Hm. Wild, reckless firing failed to stop the criminal and instead killed someone an entire street away from the crime. Yes, the criminal situation precipitated the woman's death, but she wouldn't have died had the man avoided his reckless spray-and-pray fest on a public street. That part was his fault alone.

    Michigan law might well hold the criminal legally responsible. The man whose bullet killed the woman had better be counting his lucky stars, then.

    Makes you think about consequences of firing. Anything's possible, once you pull that trigger.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    This has always been a concern of mine.

    I think this is why the phrase "every bullet has a lawyer attached to it" was created.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    The only silver lining is that the thief bears responsibility. The rest of this is all soup sandwich.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  5. #5
    Member Array Kyle18's Avatar
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    I'd hesitate to fire in that situation, but that is hind sight and not being there. In my home, I have a 5-10 degree fire zone at my front door; anything outside that is a no fire zone. Even then that's pushing it. I'd hate to be that 65 year old fellow. Would he be liable in a civil suit if the deceased folks sue for wrongful death in that state?
    Be responsible for your own actions.
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  6. #6
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle18 View Post
    I'd hesitate to fire in that situation, but that is hind sight and not being there.
    Basic plans of action for various situations really shouldn't be hindsight. You should be able to look objectively at such a scenario and decide right now what your intended action should be. The mere fact that such a situation arose, here, shouldn't change that.

    Firing down the street wildly should never be done on a whim, because, sure as sunshine, not all places are as incredibly lenient with that situation as Michigan's law enforcement folks seem to be. In most states, I'd bet that you would be strung up in front of a jury, shooting down the street like that.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #7
    Member Array DM2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Basic plans of action for various situations really shouldn't be hindsight. You should be able to look objectively at such a scenario and decide right now what your intended action should be. The mere fact that such a situation arose, here, shouldn't change that.

    Firing down the street wildly should never be done on a whim, because, sure as sunshine, not all places are as incredibly lenient with that situation as Michigan's law enforcement folks seem to be. In most states, I'd bet that you would be strung up in front of a jury, shooting down the street like that.
    I think this will be the key. Although the officer made the statement that the robber is at fault, our prosecutor is known for being pretty hard-nosed, and the police were still questioning the man who fired the gun this evening.

    In addition, when I saw the story on the news, the reporter stated that the car-jacking victim was chasing the car down the street shooting at the car. If this statement is true, I'd be willing to bet that he will face charges.

  8. #8
    Member Array highlifee's Avatar
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    if the robber was fleeing why shoot...if your life is not in danger? every criminal has their day when they run into the wrong person/house. shooting a criminal i can do but cant stand the thought of hitting a innocent person.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    He missed his chance to shoot prior to the BG leaving with his vehicle. Even if he's lucky enough for the BG to bear the brunt of the fallout from this, he's still go to live with the fact that he pulled the trigger.
    Hiram25
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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlifee View Post
    if the robber was fleeing why shoot...if your life is not in danger?
    BINGO! ^^

    There was no threat, the dynamics of the situation in the immediate had changed and dude was wrong to go chasing after him to become not the aggrieved but the aggressor.

    He had better hope that the state legislature has on the books a felony murder rule allowance, so as to displace criminal liability for her death on to the fleeing BG.
    Even still though if this were my mother/wife/sister/child I'd go after him with both barrels toward a civil wrongful death suit...And I'd own him; Lock, stock and barrel.

    People have got to act like they know, and recognize.

    Do not do this.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #11
    Member Array 8th ID's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlifee View Post
    if the robber was fleeing why shoot...if your life is not in danger? every criminal has their day when they run into the wrong person/house. shooting a criminal i can do but cant stand the thought of hitting a innocent person.

    Here in KY, the shooter (robbery victim) would be spending time, if not life, in jail. If the BG was fleeing and outside of the house, then in KY, it is NOT a justified shooting. If someone is outside of my home, but ATTEMPTING to gain entry, I can shoot them, even though they're not inside. But as soon as I'm no longer in danger, as in the BG is outside running away, it is NOT legal to shoot.

  12. #12
    Member Array subcool20's Avatar
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    I've already made the decision long ago that unless my family or myself is outside and in immediate danger I will not shoot outside my home.Nothing I own of value is kept outside plus I live in a neighborhood that most of the homes have low placed windows.
    I think everyone should examine their neighborhood and have a mental picture of what direction they can or can't shoot. Granted, I know a heat of the moment situation will cloud things but I still believe we should make the attemp. . . .My 2 cents

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    This is a case where I can see the robber being criminally liable for the woman's death, but the shooter is going to (and rightly should) get hosed in civil court.

    Definitely a tragedy.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlifee View Post
    if the robber was fleeing why shoot...if your life is not in danger?
    All depends on whether the "fleeing" criminal was endangering folks. But with the information that has been published so far, it certainly seems the citizen was no longer in any immediate danger. Nor was anyone else ... until he started firing.

    Harming bystanders. That's the one main thing I've tried very hard to avoid since picking up a firearm to carry. As some folks suggest, we're responsible for each and every bullet that leaves the chamber. Particularly when one cannot justify being in immediate and unavoidable threat of death, it's awfully tough to justify firing a gun "over that-a-way."

    Think of the lives he's irrevocably harmed. No "mulligans" on the street. No "do overs" in real life, when it comes to this sort of thing.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #15
    Member Array DM2's Avatar
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    Good News, the 11pm news reports that the police have the carjacker in custody and that he may be charged with the death of the innocent homeowner.

    Not sure of the fate of the shooter. The news is reporting he started shooting after the carjacker was clipped by another car and hit a tree. When he jumped out and ran is when the victim shot at him killing the lady in her home.

    I've been studying our forum a lot since joining and this is a situation that concerns me about carrying concealed. As a bystander, I think I would have a flight mindset. However, I've never experienced an adrenalin rush like some I've read about here when members have been involved in life threatening situations and have had to draw or feared for their life. How does one train for situations like these.

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