Springfield, MO: "Case highlights concealed carry weapons issues"

This is a discussion on Springfield, MO: "Case highlights concealed carry weapons issues" within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The city I live in A gun-wielding furniture store manager who foiled an alleged burglary over the weekend is glad she took the advice of ...

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Thread: Springfield, MO: "Case highlights concealed carry weapons issues"

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    Member Array opalelement's Avatar
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    Springfield, MO: "Case highlights concealed carry weapons issues"

    The city I live in

    A gun-wielding furniture store manager who foiled an alleged burglary over the weekend is glad she took the advice of friends this past winter and enrolled in a concealed carry weapons permit class.

    But as a brief dose of celebrity found Angela Mallard, 45, and her 65-year-old mother Marlene Woodman on Monday, a law enforcement official who teaches such permit classes expressed hope that citizens holding concealed weapons follow the law.

    "Missouri is like 48 other states, except the state of Texas, that does not allow deadly force in defense of property," said Randy Gibson, a captain in the Greene County Sheriff's Department. "Property is property. It doesn't matter if it's a $5 purse or a $5,000 purse. It's still property."

    The News-Leader sought clarity on the law from Gibson, who agreed to speak only in generalities and not specifically about this case since Springfield police, not the sheriff's department, is investigating the incident as a burglary.

    It all happened around lunchtime Saturday at Smart Buy Home Furnishings, 2845 W. Chestnut.

    Police arrested a 58-year-old man and his 45-year-old brother after Mallard held the two at gunpoint.

    Woodman said the older man sneaked into a lunch room behind the main counter near the back of the store while she showed pieces of furniture to a new customer, not realizing that the man was his brother.

    Mallard returned from lunch and found the older man in the lunch room, then hollered at her mother to hurry to Mallard's car to retrieve a .380 pistol.

    Neither man apparently tried to flee but agreed to sit in the lunch room even before Mallard had the gun in her hand, the store workers said.

    Mallard said she earned a concealed carry permit in January.

    Gibson has taught 93 concealed weapons permit classes at Bass Pro Shops in the past six years and is well-versed in Missouri Revised Statute 563.031.

    "We spend about an hour of the eight-hour class discussing this very issue," Gibson said.

    The statute states that deadly force can be used when a victim is defending himself but that someone cannot discharge a gun simply to protect physical property.

    Gibson said the statute is difficult to interpret, especially the following graphs:

    "A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless: ... (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person."

    Gibson explained that someone cannot discharge a firearm in defense of a TV set, or car stereo, for instance. State statute 563.041 also spells out the use of deadly force.

    "It's got to pass the "R" test; it's got to be reasonable," Gibson said. "If it doesn't rise to that level (in defense of yourself or someone else), some other means of force is going to be appropriate.

    "We don't want citizens going out in public and acting like cops with badges," Gibson said. "We don't want what happened on East Battlefield (last year) and someone enter into crime-prevention mode. That is not a reasonable use of force."

    Gibson was referencing the case of Charles R. Webb from last October. Then 61, Webb allegedly fired three shots from his 9mm handgun at a fleeing purse snatcher following an incident at the Price Cutter store at 3260 E. Battlefield Road. The sheriff's department eventually revoked Webb's concealed weapons permit.

    Saturday's incident apparently contained much less drama.

    Mallard indicated Monday that she felt confident enough not to discharge her weapon, given police were en route.

    Mallard, 45, and her mother had become somewhat of celebrities by late morning Monday after their story appeared in The News-Leader.

    A handful of local broadcast media swung by to interview them, and several people they didn't even know phoned or stopped by to offer encouragement.

    Charges against the alleged burglars have yet to be filed. In fact, it may be a month before Springfield police take the case to the prosecutor's office, said Lt. David Millsap, who oversees the criminal investigations unit of the Springfield Police Department.

    Millsap explained that the case has been assigned to an investigator who will need to gather witness statements and possibly security videos, among other tasks.

    The News-Leader generally does not publish names of suspects until they are charged with a crime.

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  3. #2
    Member Array FroMan's Avatar
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    I'm in and out of Spfd about every week. This didn't even happen in the shady part of town.

    And who's using deadly force? They didn't shoot or kill the suspects, merely pointed a gun at them and helped apprehend them for police. A come to Jesus meeting is all bad guys need sometimes to rethink their errant ways. Unfortunately, many times it's also not enough...

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    I think we need a few more laws to protect the criminals.

    One of the most dangerous political philosophies afflicting America today is the belief that we can’t allow anyone to suffer the natural consequences of their own stupidity.

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    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Some other use of force? What are two older ladies going to do against two male burglars? A guy can go from jacking your TV to slitting your throat in about 1 second. If he's stealing your stuff, the guy already has bad intentions.

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    Have you ever been hit in the head with a couch!
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    Texas gets it right

    Benito Pantoja, 24: Bayou Body Count No. 146 - Houston News - Hair Balls

    Would you get killed over a tip jar?

    Benito Pantoja, 24, did, and it was a tip jar from a taco truck. Which means it was either the world's most tip-happy bunch of taco fans, or no matter what the amount in the jar, the taco-truck owner takes tips, very, very seriously.

    Police say Pantoja attempted to run with the tip jar of a taco truck in the 8400 block of La Porte Road about 2:45 a.m. Saturday. (Oh, those 2:45 a.m. tacos add so much to your next morning's hangover.)

    The owner of the taco truck objected. With a gun.
    "Patrol officers responded to a shooting call..found Pantoja being treated by HFD emergency personnel," HPD said. "Further investigation determined Pantoja had stolen the tip jar from a nearby mobile taco truck. As he attempted to flee, Pantoja was confronted by the truck owner (the shooter) and shot."

    Pantoja was taken to Ben Taub, where he died, the owner was unhurt. No charges were filed, but the case will be sent to a Harris County grand jury.
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    The age-old purpose of SD Law from the Middle Ages on is the protection of life, not your toaster or car. It's not proportionate to do otherwise - according to any sane law or the instinctive knee-jerk recognition of the laws of "life" most people have.

    No one deserves to die over any property - and the law and courts are expressly created to deal proportionately with such acts. We are not judges and executioners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    No one deserves to die over any property - and the law and courts are expressly created to deal proportionately with such acts. We are not judges and executioners.
    And yet in the late 1800's the judges and the courts did just that.

    It was a hanging offense to steal a man's horse! Why? Because even though it was "just property," stealing a man's horse while out on the range could result in that man dying from exposure to the elements.

    I'm just sayin'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    And yet in the late 1800's the judges and the courts did just that.

    It was a hanging offense to steal a man's horse! Why? Because even though it was "just property," stealing a man's horse while out on the range could result in that man dying from exposure to the elements.

    I'm just sayin'
    This is exactly why TX has it right...don't steal 'stuff' in TX.
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    I'm tired of our lawmakers coddling bad guys by saying "they were just poor and misunderstood" in their youth, or they really weren't acting dangerous enough to prosecute, so they should be treated more respectfully, because even though they tried to victimize someone, they have rights too...this is bull. What about the rights of us who follow the laws? If they break in, or are there making the choice to victimize someone, I say they deserve whatever they get. They made the choice to act as a criminal, and nobody forced them into it. Last year three of these "misunderstood" men came knocking at the front door of my sister's home. The only person home was my eighteen year old niece. She checked the peep hole, didn't recognize the men and didn't open the door. The men, thinking there was no one home jumped the fence and headed into the backyard. My niece called her grandparents who live just down the street, and then quickly called her father at work. He told her to hide just as these men kicked in the back door, and were immediately intercepted by my sister's German Shepherd, which was knocked unconscious. My niece hid in my sister's closet and luckily, that was the one room the intruders didn't get a chance to search before her grandparents and the police showed up. The men ran from the house after hearing the grandparents car pull up out front and her grandmother "layed" on the horn and spooked them. The cops caught two of the three. My sister's family weren't really "pro gun" until that incident, now they realize how badly things could have gone, and now they all know how to use a gun. Makes you appreciate the "Castle Law," and if this situation ever arises again, things will turn out differently for the bad guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    This is exactly why TX has it right...don't steal 'stuff' in TX.
    +1 I've always held the opinion that stealing from me directly affects my right to life. I also understand our fouled up "justice" system has it backwards top to bottom and that I must follow the law or risk being the cell mate of a 400lb behemoth named bubba. It's a darn fine line to walk compliments to all the backwards feel good folks.
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    Senior Member Array Gun Bunny's Avatar
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    Gibson explained that someone cannot discharge a firearm in defense of a TV set, or car stereo, for instance. State statute 563.041 also spells out the use of deadly force.

    "It's got to pass the "R" test; it's got to be reasonable," Gibson said. "If it doesn't rise to that level (in defense of yourself or someone else), some other means of force is going to be appropriate.

    "We don't want citizens going out in public and acting like cops with badges," Gibson said. "We don't want what happened on East Battlefield (last year) and someone enter into crime-prevention mode. That is not a reasonable use of force."
    So does this mean that LEOs can kill to protect property? That's the way I read his comment as!

    But once you have someone held for the police and then retrieve a firearm, if they try to jump you, then can you legally use deadly force? How else do you hold some criminal for the police?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    No one deserves to die over any property - and the law and courts are expressly created to deal proportionately with such acts. We are not judges and executioners.
    And those laws have worked wonders, haven't they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Bunny View Post
    So does this mean that LEOs can kill to protect property? That's the way I read his comment as!

    But once you have someone held for the police and then retrieve a firearm, if they try to jump you, then can you legally use deadly force? How else do you hold some criminal for the police?
    You can use deadly force provided you feel your life is threatened. You cannot shoot a fleeing felon. According to the "Castle Law" where it is in effect, you may use deadly force against any intruder that breaches the threshold of your home, vehicle, or if you own your own business and you are threatened inside said business, but if they run, don't shoot them.
    "God hears all prayers, even when the answer is No."

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    Senior Member Array Gun Bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCALPHUNTER View Post
    You can use deadly force provided you feel your life is threatened. You cannot shoot a fleeing felon. According to the "Castle Law" where it is in effect, you may use deadly force against any intruder that breaches the threshold of your home, vehicle, or if you own your own business and you are threatened inside said business, but if they run, don't shoot them.
    Yes, I know what you are saying, but they made it sound like LEOs could, we can't (I know we can't).
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