Looks like it working in Arizona

Looks like it working in Arizona

This is a discussion on Looks like it working in Arizona within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Immigrant families leave Arizona and tough new law | National news | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle I fear Texas will be the next destination for ...

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Thread: Looks like it working in Arizona

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    Looks like it working in Arizona



  2. #2
    Member Array ASHTXSNIPER's Avatar
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    Thats the problem they will head to Texas. We dont need them here nor do we want them. Yes this is Texas now go home.
    Proud houlder of a Texas Open Carry License.

  3. #3
    Member Array Once Bitten's Avatar
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    We are sending them to California where they are welcome! I think we should issue them all antlers to wear while they visit our country!
    I do everything the voices in my wife's head tell me to do!

    Impossible is not a word. It's just a reason for someone not to try!

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Have to admit, it's a tough situation all around. I can't stand the ones that are here to take advantage of our system and taxpayers for criminal purposes etc. but I wish the best and welcome any that are willing to come here to work and make an honest living.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  5. #5
    Member Array Jesters Dead's Avatar
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    Way to go Arizona!




  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    ...I wish the best and welcome any that are willing to come here to work and make an honest living.
    Which is actually exactly how AZ feels...

    A) Be a resident alien in the the US by way of AZ through lawful and legal channels, AZ embraces you with open arms.

    B) Be a resident alien in the US by way of AZ unlawfully and illegally but choose to begin going through appropriate channels toward becoming lawful & legal, AZ supports your decision to become legal and will embrace you upon lawful return.

    C) If A or B is not applicable or of interest to you as an alien residing in the US by way of AZ, then on July 29th you are advised by AZ to relocate to CA or some other state that will embrace and support you.

    To my mind the AZ law by intent and stated application is simple as A, B, C and $1, $2, $3.

    BTW this law is not applicable just to persons from the nation of Mexico, but to all and any foreign national of which here in the US we have very many of every race, nationality and reason to flee their own country to come here albeit as in defiance and disregard for our Federal laws.

    - Janq

    "Ruiz, 38, and her husband, who builds furniture, came to the U.S. from Los Mochis in the northwestern Mexican state of Sinaloa about six years ago on tourist visas, which expired long ago. Two of their kids, ages 9 and 13, are here illegally, while their 1-year-old was born here. The family is moving to Clovis, N.M..." - The Houston Chronicle
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    BTW this law is not applicable just to persons from the nation of Mexico, but to all and any foreign national of which here in the US we have very many of every race, nationality and reason to flee their own country to come here albeit as in defiance and disregard for our Federal laws.
    Thats what a lot of people don't get. They say the law is "racial discrimination" by the state. Being an illegal alien is a matter of ones behavior, not of ones birth. Some of the most vocal advocates for that law that I know personally here in Texas are neighbors of mine originally from Canada. They are still going through the process to become citizens. They know first hand what is involved and have no sympathy for those that don't take the time to go through the process like they are.
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  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep...^^

    We _all_ know someone who is here illegally, even as they might not be brown skinned as from MX and/or have a sur name that includes the letter 'Z'.

    People here from Ireland, Australia, the continent of Africa, India, Chile, Brsil and Spain too.
    Persons from Canada (!), the UK, Russia, China, Germany and Japan too along with the entirety of the Middle East including Tunisia and out to Greece.

    People who are our neighbors, classmates at college (unlawful over stay of a student visa entry is a notorious and long time route for entry to the US), co-workers at every imaginable non-govt. non-contract employee job imaginable regardless of job collar color, style or type.
    They are everywhere.

    When I was in college I used to work under a grown man who was such a person as here illegally from Morocco.
    It was an open non-secret among everyone at my employer that he was who he was, and folk used to kid him about don't make me mad or I'll call immigration.
    Of course nobody ever did so. But then nobody got mad at/about him either (!).

    All manner of people come to the US, as foreign nationals choosing to circumvent our national AND state laws as unlawful/illegal aliens to take up residence here.
    The reasons always are varied but the bottom line same. Illegal and unlawful.

    Not at all being a xenophobe, isolationist nor being wholly ignoring or uncaring toward the often terrible conditions that real human beings are fleeing from so as to come to the US seeking a little compassion as well as shelter and safe harbor.
    But we do have a process for this, that is no different than that of most any other country including first worlders such as the much more stringent UK (!), along with our friends Canada, Italy, Germany, Australia and Japan. They all have laws toward handling and allowance of aliens as into their border. Even US originating aliens regardless of race or skin tone (hispanics are caucasoids and as such they come in every color from blanco to brown).

    I wish people would get off of the 'racial discrimination' boat.
    Making that call, IMHO as a person who has been a life long racial and social minority and has seen & experienced first hand real and actual racial discrimination, diminishes the meaning and reduces that of other such cases having zero relevance to this specific bill/law and initiative by intent.

    This law is NOT racist nor is it intended at all to endorse or support racism.
    Further it does not allow same to be applied.
    Meanwhile as an actual stated condition of allowed entry to the UK it is a requirement that the person have a command of the native tongue, have understanding of native ways & traditions, as well as be able to establish means to support ones self as well as add to the social fabric by way of among many things...Being able to and mandated to pay national taxes.

    UK Border Agency | How do I apply for British citizenship or another form of British nationality?

    - Americans legal by birth or lawful choice
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Yep...^^

    We _all_ know someone who is here illegally, even as they might not be brown skinned as from MX and/or have a sur name that includes the letter 'Z'.

    People here from Ireland, Australia, the continent of Africa, India, Chile, Brsil and Spain too.
    Persons from Canada (!), the UK, Russia, China, Germany and Japan too along with the entirety of the Middle East including Tunisia and out to Greece.

    People who are our neighbors, classmates at college (unlawful over stay of a student visa entry is a notorious and long time route for entry to the US), co-workers at every imaginable non-govt. non-contract employee job imaginable regardless of job collar color, style or type.
    They are everywhere.

    When I was in college I used to work under a grown man who was such a person as here illegally from Morocco.
    It was an open non-secret among everyone at my employer that he was who he was, and folk used to kid him about don't make me mad or I'll call immigration.
    Of course nobody ever did so. But then nobody got mad at/about him either (!).

    All manner of people come to the US, as foreign nationals choosing to circumvent our national AND state laws as unlawful/illegal aliens to take up residence here.
    The reasons always are varied but the bottom line same. Illegal and unlawful.

    Not at all being a xenophobe, isolationist nor being wholly ignoring or uncaring toward the often terrible conditions that real human beings are fleeing from so as to come to the US seeking a little compassion as well as shelter and safe harbor.
    But we do have a process for this, that is no different than that of most any other country including first worlders such as the much more stringent UK (!), along with our friends Canada, Italy, Germany, Australia and Japan. They all have laws toward handling and allowance of aliens as into their border. Even US originating aliens regardless of race or skin tone (hispanics are caucasoids and as such they come in every color from blanco to brown).

    I wish people would get off of the 'racial discrimination' boat.
    Making that call, IMHO as a person who has been a life long racial and social minority and has seen & experienced first hand real and actual racial discrimination, diminishes the meaning and reduces that of other such cases having zero relevance to this specific bill/law and initiative by intent.

    This law is NOT racist nor is it intended at all to endorse or support racism.
    Further it does not allow same to be applied.
    Meanwhile as an actual stated condition of allowed entry to the UK it is a requirement that the person have a command of the native tongue, have understanding of native ways & traditions, as well as be able to establish means to support ones self as well as add to the social fabric by way of among many things...Being able to and mandated to pay national taxes.

    UK Border Agency | How do I apply for British citizenship or another form of British nationality?

    - Americans legal by birth or lawful choice
    spot on mate.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    You gotta love some of the quotes:

    "It'll be like a desert here,"
    Isn't Phoenix, or even the whole state a desert!?!?
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

  11. #11
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    Round 'em up, ship 'em out...at least in TX you can get shot for stealing 'stuff'...
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    Member Array PeterCartwright's Avatar
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    I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV (or anywhere else), but would someone explain to me what is so onerous about wanting BOTH a guest worker program for resident aliens AND insisting on a secure border? If our country really made it a priority to control who can come into the country, wouldn't legal, resident aliens benefit the most (by shutting down "coyotes", drug thugs and other undesirables who regularly prey on Mexican nationals)? How is this bigoted? What am I missing?

    PC

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterCartwright View Post
    I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV (or anywhere else), but would someone explain to me what is so onerous about wanting BOTH a guest worker program for resident aliens AND insisting on a secure border? If our country really made it a priority to control who can come into the country, wouldn't legal, resident aliens benefit the most (by shutting down "coyotes", drug thugs and other undesirables who regularly prey on Mexican nationals)? How is this bigoted? What am I missing?

    PC
    Current Administration life line of votes.
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  14. #14
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    Re: PeterC... right track, wrong train

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterCartwright View Post
    I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV (or anywhere else), but would someone explain to me what is so onerous about wanting BOTH a guest worker program for resident aliens AND insisting on a secure border? If our country really made it a priority to control who can come into the country, wouldn't legal, resident aliens benefit the most (by shutting down "coyotes", drug thugs and other undesirables who regularly prey on Mexican nationals)? How is this bigoted? What am I missing?

    PC
    You are on the right track, but.

    First, addressing the "bigoted" issue:

    Not only would legal resident aliens and everyone else benefit by making control of the border a priority, everyone could in theory benefit; even Mexico and their citizens if their government then felt obligated to deal with its own problems.

    The difficulties with many of the proposals and new laws which have passed and which are proposed, is that they do not address control of the border. They attempt to address finding and arresting people who do not belong within the US, and doing this far inland from the border.

    This approach is fraught with great difficulty. There is no way it can be accomplished in a fair and in a constitutional way without engaging in profiling, or without requiring everyone to carry a uniform identification card. The latter approach (everyone must carry uniform papers) has been the hallmark of dictatorships in the past, is never foolproof, and there are always lawfully present individuals (even native born citizens) who will fall through the paper work cracks and get caught up and even deported through error. I believe I've read that each year we deport about 300-400 citizens by mistake, and sometimes folks are denied reentry by mistake. And this with with Federal LE folks far better trained than local LE in the intricacies of these issues.

    In the days when Selective Service was active it was the law that every man keep his card with him at all times. Of course, in a practical world men often simply didn't do that. We didn't demand that the local police ask for the card at every traffic stop and immediately arrest everyone sans card. Doing that would have been impractical. It would have ensnared people who simply forgot it; or people who had lost it and were waiting for a replacement. Also, as always, there were many individuals here as visitors, on work visas, etc., who weren't required to have or carry such a card. Papers please doesn't work, and very many American do not like the idea at all based on history.

    The profiling element and the bigotry element which you asked about arises from the fact that it is not possible to determine whom to ask for papers without considering appearance. And, appearance by itself is not reasonable suspicion. The illegal Caucasian from Canada isn't going to be asked for papers. The lawful 4th generation or 100th generation Mexican or Asian will be. The black man with a minor Jamaican or Hatian like accent will be.

    This inequality of "risk" of being asked for papers and risk of arrest, will fall unevenly on certain segments of the lawful population, and thus --even if not intended to be bigoted-- is a violation of the equal protection clause of our constitution.


    Second: Addressing your question, "would someone explain to me what is so onerous about wanting BOTH a guest worker program for resident aliens AND insisting on a secure border? "

    I think the usual concerns about guest worker programs fall into two categories. 1) Competition for scarce jobs and wage suppression 2) the large numbers of folks who once here as guest workers, somehow never leave.

    We didn't accumulate an estimated 12-20 million unlawful aliens in this country across the US -Mexican border. Many flew in through LA, Boston, NY, on various visas and simply never left. E.g., foreign students from around the world. It is quite easy to stay if you have obtained a DL, a social security number, a bank account, some friends and a job, while in a lawful status.

    So, you are on the right track, but the proposals are the wrong train for getting to our destination.

    Hope this helps answer your two questions.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterCartwright View Post
    I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV (or anywhere else), but would someone explain to me what is so onerous about wanting BOTH a guest worker program for resident aliens AND insisting on a secure border? If our country really made it a priority to control who can come into the country, wouldn't legal, resident aliens benefit the most (by shutting down "coyotes", drug thugs and other undesirables who regularly prey on Mexican nationals)? How is this bigoted? What am I missing?

    PC
    My same question... when you figure it out, let me know.

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