Highlighting the negatives of CCW ...

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Thread: Highlighting the negatives of CCW ...

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    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    Since May 2007, concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least 175 individuals--including nine law enforcement officers--in 26 states.
    So 175 in three years? Does anyone know if the claims in this article are substantiated? The only "stats" the site will cite are their own findings.

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    I love people who quote gun stats with no reference points. 175 sounds like a big number. How many people were stabbed with kitchen knives, beaten with blunt objects, poisoned, etc?
    Never mind the fact that drivers kill 35K+ people a year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    So 175 in three years? Does anyone know if the claims in this article are substantiated? The only "stats" the site will cite are their own findings.
    They also appear to use the classic brady group logic and state how many were killed, but don't state what all of them were. Were they all innocent bystanders(besides the 9 LEO's) or were some of the mviolent criminals that were repelled by someone defending themselves. They also mention the 52 cases remaining with 49 being charged with homicide, but just because a prosecutor charges someone doesn't mean their guilty of anything nor does it mean that whatever happened wasn't caused by an initial violent attack on an unsuspecting victim.

    As usual, their stats are decidedly one-sided and useless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    They also appear to use the classic brady group logic and state how many were killed, but don't state what all of them were. Were they all innocent bystanders(besides the 9 LEO's) or were some of the mviolent criminals that were repelled by someone defending themselves. They also mention the 52 cases remaining with 49 being charged with homicide, but just because a prosecutor charges someone doesn't mean their guilty of anything nor does it mean that whatever happened wasn't caused by an initial violent attack on an unsuspecting victim.

    As usual, their stats are decidedly one-sided and useless.
    Well technically, the Binghamton, NY mass shooting was done by a licensed NY CCW permit holder. He was one that NY admitted fell through the cracks....... the guy was totally nuts, we know that now.

    So obviously everywhere someone is going to slip through the cracks, its a matter of reality. Nothing can be 100% perfect, ever. Not in theory or even in science. What those numbers are, I don't know......

    The 175 does sound high, but that's over 3 years. I'd like to see some comparisons of other murders over those 3 years....

    Like how many children killed their parents with a baseball bat?
    Or how many parents killed their children by drowning them?

    etc.......

    Point is I'd want to compare how many CCW license holders there are overall in each of those 3 years....... if there are 1 million of them and only 175 cracked, what is that "crack" ratio compared to other "cracks" ......

    How many NON - CCW permit holders killed someone over the same 3 years? With perfectly legal hunting rifles or the old blunt force (BFT) trauma favorite......

    So many question would need to be answered to even consider putting those stats on a website..... yet these morons did it with not one......

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    Well technically, the Binghamton, NY mass shooting was done by a licensed NY CCW permit holder. He was one that NY admitted fell through the cracks....... the guy was totally nuts, we know that now.

    So obviously everywhere someone is going to slip through the cracks, its a matter of reality. Nothing can be 100% perfect, ever. Not in theory or even in science. What those numbers are, I don't know......

    The 175 does sound high, but that's over 3 years. I'd like to see some comparisons of other murders over those 3 years....

    Like how many children killed their parents with a baseball bat?
    Or how many parents killed their children by drowning them?

    etc.......

    Point is I'd want to compare how many CCW license holders there are overall in each of those 3 years....... if there are 1 million of them and only 175 cracked, what is that "crack" ratio compared to other "cracks" ......

    How many NON - CCW permit holders killed someone over the same 3 years? With perfectly legal hunting rifles or the old blunt force (BFT) trauma favorite......

    So many question would need to be answered to even consider putting those stats on a website..... yet these morons did it with not one......
    But you can't make that comparison unless you answer those other equestions...and like the other 52 cases that are still pending...who's to say they won't be found innocent? So that would throw off any comparisons right off the bat.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    So 175 in three years? Does anyone know if the claims in this article are substantiated? The only "stats" the site will cite are their own findings.
    those include justified homicide I believe
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    Since May 2007, concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least 175 individuals--including nine law enforcement officers--in 26 states.
    How many "needed killin'"? That is to say, how many of these alleged 175 killed were felons/criminals who were stopped in the commission of another crime?
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    if you look on VPC's website, only a handful were found guilty of a crime so far
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    Let's see, 175 people over three years huh? That's about 58 per year.

    Well a quick look at the FBI crime statistics for the country shows that there were 16,929 murders in 2007 and 14,180 murders in 2008 (the 2009 data is still preliminary, and the numbers here include justifiable shootings by both LEO and private citizens).

    So, even if all the 175 people that VPC mentions were complete wackos who 'slipped through the cracks' (and we know they were not) it would still be statistical noise. That'd be 0.34% and 0.41% respectively. When you remove those of the 175 who justifiably shot someone, those percentages go down even further.

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    Not all of the killing was done with a firearm.
    A very high percentage were done by folks that had tripped off line or were done by boyfriends/girlfriends. Not having a permit would not have prevented these killings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    those include justified homicide I believe
    When it was under 100 I read through them all one night. Non of them seemed justified. Some were not even firearms deaths. Lots of suicides. And some folks undoubtedly slipped through the cracks, because they should not have had a permit at the time of the shooting.

    That said, it's a number that sounds large when help up alone. But would shrink significantly, statistically speaking, when held up to other deaths.
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