Tapes from Costco shooting now online

This is a discussion on Tapes from Costco shooting now online within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Respectfully, Janq, dispatchers are nothing more than second hand witnesses. They repeat what they are told (and hope nothing is lost in this game of ...

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Thread: Tapes from Costco shooting now online

  1. #16
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    Respectfully, Janq, dispatchers are nothing more than second hand witnesses. They repeat what they are told (and hope nothing is lost in this game of "telephone") from witnesses on the scene. It's just as likely that "their" witness is reporting misinformation as it is that the other witnesses are/were reporting misinformation.

    I've spent a LOT of time on the giving and receiving ends of radio transmissions - all the person on one end of the radio knows (or thinks they know) is what the other person - perhaps miles away - is telling them. Relaying that information makes the actual content of the information no more (or less) accurate.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Understood, and in this specific case though the caller was the store manager...As dispatch/911 states verbatim to the responding officers.
    This was not a case of lady from across the street sees a situation brewing and dials 911 to report a third person outside looking in view of what she thinks she is seeing.

    The information relayed in this specific incident was and is solid.
    Much more solid than what the third party uninvolved so called 'witnesses' think they saw & heard per their own first hand reports.

    The cops...
    ...Capt. Patrick Neville described Scott as "kind of going berserk." Workers evacuated the store. Officers stopped Scott outside as the customers were leaving.

    Neville said an officer tapped the man on the shoulder and identified himself as police. Scott then spun around and reached for a gun, law enforcement officials said.

    "They ordered him to the ground," Neville said of the officers on Saturday. "He does not comply with that order. He reaches for the weapon, pulls the weapon out, at which time, the weapon was out of the waistband."
    Third partys...
    ...One witness interviewed Saturday and three others interviewed Sunday by the Review-Journal gave accounts that differed from what police described.

    With a few minor variations, the witnesses recounted matching sequences of events. The witnesses interviewed did not see what happened inside the store that prompted workers to call police....

    ...Attorney David Amesbury said he arrived in time to see shoppers leaving. He described the customer exodus as being "like the aftermath of Disneyland."

    A customer told Amesbury that he couldn't go in, so the attorney waited on a bench west of the entrance. He said he had a clear view of two officers standing beside the entrance with their guns drawn.

    All four witnesses said they were within 20 feet of the store's main entrance. They said Scott walked out of the entrance with the crowd.

    They described an officer shouting at Scott, then a quick succession of gunshots.

    The witnesses differed in their recollection of what one of the officers said.

    Amesbury heard, "I told you to stop. Stop."

    Two witnesses interviewed Sunday heard, "Drop it."

    A fourth witness, interviewed Saturday, heard, "Get down," "Put it down," or "Get out of the way."

    A second anonymous witness said Sunday he saw Scott pull up his shirt and turn toward the shouting officer. Then he saw the man get shot, drop to his knees and fall face-first in front of the entrance....

    Source - http://www.lvrj.com/news/slaying-of-...-98223884.html
    Multiple cops statements [Three discharged their firearms] and reports + 911 dispatch audio [As recorded over the air by a third party] > Third party witnesses at 20+ ft. away including outside the building not actualy on scene nor able to state they actually saw anything aside from officers standing around at the building entrance

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Several people called this correctly as being a potential issue of man with gun with a smart/sass mouth in the original COSTCO thread.
    A case of man has a gun, it showed/printed, man got busted and asked to leave, man does not comply, man gives lip to the store personnel (manager) who has a right to ask he to leave, man goes on about 2A rights et. al., police are called and respond...
    I don't get to shoot anyone for that. As far as I know, neither do the cops. Maybe they were justified. Maybe they were not. But to go from the above quote to a dead guy in the entrance, I can only hope that something else happened. Otherwise, the folks who carry in that area better start paying some serious attention to their mirrors. I for one don't like the thoughts of that type of environment being created for lawful carriers. I'm open to believing either side, if there are good facts to back it up. Which it seems neither side is able to show right now.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    CJ,

    You as a civilian and use of lethal force is not at all same never mind comparable to that of justifiable use of lethal force by law enforcement.

    For more specific info on that reference this old thread at:

    * Forum
    * Related Topics
    * Reference & "How To" Forum

    'Three easy citizen CCW rules to know and memorize to avoid hard times'
    November 27th, 2007 01:39 AM
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...oid-hard-times
    Yes...Cops can, have been for ages and regularly do use lethal force (!) for just such totality of being.
    We regularly do and have had such items posted as news here at DC.com, in this sub area (!) no less.

    It's simple; A lesson to learn to here (but not the only one)
    Comply.

    If advised/asked/told to leave a store, as I'd stated prior, then do make the _choice_ to COMPLY and leave rather than stand there giving folk lip and/or worst acting a fool.
    If police respond to _you_ and direct/demand (they rarely ever advise or ask anything) that you do something specific such as throw your hands to the air and/or go to the ground...AS THEY HAVE GUNS DRAWN ON YOU!...well then simple mathematics is that you COMPLY.

    Simple.

    It gets hard, and use of force potential deadly, when folks make choices as unrelated to direct and immediate compliance.

    Don't shoot the messenger. : |

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Just a little note here, in the first recording at about the one minute thirty five second mark or so the dispatcher says "they" (unidentified as to who they are) are requesting "C.I.T." and that they believe the subject is "E.D." In all the departments I am familiar with C.I.T. stands for Crisis Intervention Team. Those are folks trained to respond to and deal with emotionally disturbed ("E.D.") individuals.
    So now the responding officers are responding for an armed individual who is believed to be irrational or delusional in a target rich environment. Then around the five minute fifty mark we get that he told the manager he is a Green Beret. So now we have an armed, highly trained, emotionally disturbed, individual in a target rich environment.
    If the 9-1-1 tapes support the dispatchers statements to the officers Costco had better hope they have something to back this stuff up. If it turns out to be shenanigans by the caller to get officers to respond faster they could very well be facing civil and criminal actions.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  7. #21
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    Multiple cops statements [Three discharged their firearms] and reports + 911 dispatch audio [As recorded over the air by a third party] > Third party witnesses at 20+ ft. away including outside the building not actualy on scene nor able to state they actually saw anything aside from officers standing around at the building entrance
    All the witnesses were WITHIN 20', not at 20'+. Within 20' could mean 2 inches away...

    There are multiple (four) statements that contradict the police statements. The "volume" of witnesses is about equal on both sides.

    The shooting happened outside the store, where all the witnesses were. They all saw the shooting. That they didn't see the precursor events inside the store has no bearing on what they DID witness - the shooting.

    The only "third party" witness here is the dispatcher - everyone else was there, at the scene, at the time of the shooting. They have equal credibility, all other things being equal.

    What the manager relayed to the dispatcher has no "extra" weight. It's his business to get the cops there ASAP - that's why he called 911. It's his store/merchandise that he believes is being threatened. If anything, HE has an emotional investment in the situation that might cause him to (consciously or unconsciously) "enhance" the facts in order to get a quicker response. The bystanders outside - who aren't emotionally involved and are simply neutral observers - have no reason to distort the facts one way or another.

    These tapes, unfortunately, illuminate nothing about the shooting. They confirm that the manager called in a "man with a gun," and that he claims that the man was acting erraticly (to put it mildly). It confirms that this is all the responding officers knew. It doesn't tell us anything about the shooting itself - for that we are still left with two very different stories.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed OPFOR, but that twenty feet is not a measured twenty feet.
    That is a guesstimate as made by the witnesses.

    You, I and everyone knows how real world reliable guesstimates are.

    Twenty feet guesstimated can be and often is anything but 20 feet actual.
    Twenty feet guesstimated by another is 18 feet actual.
    Seven inches guesstimated is 5 inches or less on a ruler.

    Yes the witness statements do contradict the police statements. I'd noted that to start.
    As well this audio, specifically the third party produced Audio Source One, very much conflicts with the majority of the so called witnesses statements (as made to and reported by the media to current)...Supporting the police view. I'd stated this prior too.

    Agreed the dispatchers spoken words are third party.
    The dispatcher was not on the ground. The dispatcher was taking in information from the 911 caller.
    Very specific including personal information that neither the dispatcher nor the 911 caller 9store manager) could have possibly known without being told as much direct by Erik Roberts during his position of being as stated 'argumentative" or by his GF also on site in the immediate.
    I'd pointed out and stated that prior as well.

    What the manager stated to 911/dispatch does have extra weight, significant extra weight...As he not only called requesting assistance but most importantly he provided key details that conflict with the general view and opinion of the public eye/sentiment as well as in key areas that of the so called witnesses, who themself did not accurately detail information as toward the persons attitude and temperament but are assumed to be able to accurately detail distance (?) be it "within 20 feet" or otherwise.
    Audio Source One very much helps support the polices assertion as it has been all along.

    The Audio Source One illuminates much about the shooting:
    * It indicates that the person was at the store and had been seen with a concealed gun (!) on his person; To such a degree that not just it's location on his body but coloration and even type (SA rather than revolver) able to be confirmed by the store manager as stated to 911/dispatch.
    * It indicates that the person was for some odd reason refusing to leave the store upon being told it's policy as related to firearms.
    * It indicates that the person was not only refusing to leave (a poor decision as by choice) but he became "argumentative" toward the store personnel on this topic stating things such as; He is a Green Beret (Which was not a true statement!) and that He is authorized/permitted to carry firearms.
    One of the witness statements even stated that he'd made remark that he could do as he had been doing [carry of arms] in "Texas", as though TX law is some how relevant to that of NV never mind specifically relevant to his being asked/told to leave the store...prior to police response & arrival.
    * It indicates that the person was moving store merchandise around and opening store product _after_ being asked/told to leave (follow the time sequence in the audio) and that he did so in a manner such as to arouse suspicion in him to be concerned with he being a potential shoplifter, again take note of the time sequence among the audio.
    * It also shows that the person was/had become belligerent in vocal tone [loud] during the now armed [him] confrontation (no longer a civil conversation) between himself and the store manager, who is on the phone in real time with 911/dispatch as per the audios time tracking.
    Further upon arrival one of the responding police radioed into dispatch that the person was continuing to be belligerent. This as the officer is at the front of the store activating their pre-arranged plan to begin moving store patrons outside so as to evac the building.

    All of this is is featured in Audio Source one alone at a total 8:34m in length.
    While Audio Source Two is largely non-informative, which I'd also stated prior and to start.

    Agreed there is no specific information about the shooting as n the immediate seconds/moment just prior to trigger depress.
    But (!), going back again to the police statement and comparing what they then had to say as against what this audio now reflects...Their position now (not then) becomes well supported as a more if not most accurate reflection of circumstance fact.

    While the statements from the persons friends & family indicating that it's not possible he could have done the things the police AND store personnel say he did, are now (not then) shown with good clarity to be untrue. As well the whole thing about a West Point graduate couldn't possibly behave as such has been turned on it's false view/sentiment ear as well.
    Further the specific statements by specific persons who stated to the press (but not questioned by the police!) that they were there/near by/in the area and heard/saw/glimpsed some part of the exchange and that the person was nt acting strangely or out of the ordinary is also shown to be less than reliable in part if not whole.

    When the final police report is released we'll know all the minutiae details you and others would like to know.
    But as to now and then this tape gives the police statements released to date good weight when they stated;

    ..Capt. Patrick Neville described Scott as "kind of going berserk."
    [Inside the store prior to LEO arrival as leading up to and during the recorded 911/dispatch call]

    Workers evacuated the store.


    Officers stopped Scott outside as the customers were leaving.
    [At which time he had now clearly stopped his prior actions and to others not witness to his antics prior was calmed down in attempt to exit along with other patrons]

    Neville said an officer tapped the man on the shoulder and identified himself as police. Scott then spun around and reached for a gun, law enforcement officials said.
    [A furtive and defiant/combative action...That is in kind with his reported actions as prior toward the store manager, who then decided to call 911 for assistance]

    "They ordered him to the ground,"
    [He should have very well expected this result considering the dynamic of the 'conversation' he'd had just moments prior with the store manager]

    Neville said of the officers on Saturday. "He does not comply with that order.
    [A very poor decision making choice, to which he very well should know better per his WP and military background]

    He reaches for the weapon, pulls the weapon out, at which time, the weapon was out of the waistband."
    [Everybody knows better than to do this, regardless of their education or employment background!]
    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    What the manager relayed to the dispatcher has no "extra" weight. It's his business to get the cops there ASAP - that's why he called 911. It's his store/merchandise that he believes is being threatened. If anything, HE has an emotional investment in the situation that might cause him to (consciously or unconsciously) "enhance" the facts in order to get a quicker response. The bystanders outside - who aren't emotionally involved and are simply neutral observers - have no reason to distort the facts one way or another.

    ............These tapes, unfortunately, illuminate nothing about the shooting........ .
    Now here is where it can get interesting legally. And OPFOR I have to disagree with you on what they illuminate. (Please forgive the sloppy editing in the quote)
    What we now have from these recordings goes to the classic "What did he know and when did he know it?" What this illuminates is the officers' state of mind when they made contact with the deceased.
    Look at the response from the police department. How many ground units? A helicopter? A command post? I don't know about your agencies response S.O.P. but this is well above and beyond what my department typically sent for a weapons complaint or a disorderly subject. Going back to my previous post I would like to know who it was that requested C.I.T. Was this request from officers enroute and requested via MDC or did the caller ask for a mental health response? The statement that he said he was a Green Beret and was allowed to carry a gun also goes toward escalating the stress level.
    We have an armed individual described to us as being emotionally disturbed. He says he is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a gun.
    Exactly how that was stated can be pivotal here. Did he say it as if he is allowed to carry a gun because of his M.O.S? Unless there is something specific to Nevada law allowing this, a statement like that from an E.D. individual might be construed as a sign he is delusional. Or did he state he had been in the military, S.F. and he had a permit so he was allowed to carry a weapon?
    Is this guy highly trained and presumably highly skilled with weapons or is he delusional and can not be expected to respond rationally?

    With a high base line "pucker factor" for a call like this what does that info do to the stress level?

    If the manager distorted the information being given to the responding officers in order to get a faster response we have to ask the following question.
    Did the distortions by the manager elevate the stress level of the responding officers to the point that any ambiguous action by the victim could reasonably be misinterpreted by the officers and thereby cause them to over react resulting in his death?
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Now here is where it can get interesting legally...

    What we now have from these recordings goes to the classic "What did he know and when did he know it?"
    What this illuminates is the officers' state of mind when they made contact with the deceased.

    Look at the response from the police department.

    How many ground units? A helicopter? A command post? [And not one but two individual EMT responders]
    I don't know about your agencies response S.O.P. but this is well above and beyond what my department typically sent for a weapons complaint or a disorderly subject.

    ...

    The statement that he said he was a Green Beret and was allowed to carry a gun also goes toward escalating the stress level.
    We have an armed individual described to us as being emotionally disturbed.
    He says he is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a gun.
    Exactly how that was stated can be pivotal here.

    Did he say it as if he is allowed to carry a gun because of his M.O.S?
    Unless there is something specific to Nevada law allowing this, a statement like that from an E.D. individual might be construed as a sign he is delusional.

    Or did he state he had been in the military, S.F. and he had a permit so he was allowed to carry a weapon?
    Is this guy highly trained and presumably highly skilled with weapons or is he delusional and can not be expected to respond rationally?

    With a high base line "pucker factor" for a call like this what does that info do to the stress level?

    If the manager distorted the information being given to the responding officers in order to get a faster response we have to ask the following question.
    Did the distortions by the manager elevate the stress level of the responding officers to the point that any ambiguous action by the victim could reasonably be misinterpreted by the officers and thereby cause them to over react resulting in Scott's death?
    Agreed, one hundred percent.

    We've seen and heard of many man with a gun items here at DC.com in this sub-area, but not to my recollection ever before has there been response such as this...Without cops or citizens being fired upon.
    That in and of itself is telling as you note toward state of mind, conditions in the immediate and action/response by all parties; 911 caller, LEO and the person of concern.

    Please excuse my breaking your post paragraph out into parts.
    I've done so primarily for emphasis as well as secondarily for ease of other people reading, even though I personally have no issue with reading a large paragraph posting.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #25
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    We are agreed on almost all counts. Shootee had done enough "dumb" things inside the store so as to have the manager call 911. He did enough things outside the store so as to have the police believe he posed an immediate and deadly threat that waranted a deadly force response. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the shootee was being a jackass, and had made a NUMBER of poor decisions.

    My only hang up, still, is that there are a number of consistent witness reports that differ in SIGNIFICANT detail from the reported actions of the police and the shootee at the "moment of truth." I am certainly not on an LEO witch hunt (I am an LEO, after all), I just would like to know how so many other folks saw such a different event. (PS, I put VERY little stock in anything the shootee's friends/family say; witness testimony is unreliable enough when the witness ISN'T closely tied to the event/victim).

    And mcp, my agency response would be to send me. Yep, just me. When you're one of two American LEOs in a country (as is sometimes the case), there isn't much in the way of back up!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OPFOR,

    For the record not at all thinking you are anti-LEO on this incident or in general.
    I know/knew prior that you are active LEO with a military background per our many enjoyable discussions & debates in the past.

    If only dude had just walked out the store, to buy same stuff elsewhere.
    Imagine the non-story this would have been. : |

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #27
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    I still don't believe that there is near enough information to be able to make a determination.

    To those that are lining up on the side of the LEO's I only hope that the store manager is not one to embellish or exaggerate.

  14. #28
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    Jang, for what I quoted nobody has the right to shoot anyone. Civilian, LEO, or otherwise. It seems your very focused on that aspect of the incident. Criminal tresspass or damaging merchandise or generally being a jerk is not justification for deadly force. Period. Unless NV has a statute that says otherwise. I would want folks held accountable for that.

    That said, what happened at the door is another part of the incident. And that is where we have much less info, and where the justification, or lack of, will come from. Just being armed is not enough to push it over the edge to deadly force, unless the subject threatened the LEO's with deadly force. Even the furtive movement argument could fit here.

    Did the guy initiate the call to LEO by acting inappropriately? It does sound like he did. Would he have avoided most of this by leaving? Most likely. Did he deserve to be shot for his actions inside the store? No. Did he do something at the door that provoked the shooting? That is the $64K question. Everything hinges on that. At least for me.

    I'm up for the LEO's not being charged if they were truely provoked. But if they were not, they need to be held accountable. If they are not, then every CC'r in that area that gets "made" is in a life threatening position with that department.

    We don't need to throw this guy under the bus for being a possible jerk in the store. If that's all he did. Even if he should have been more responsible in this situation. The bigger question for me is this. Is that department working under a shoot first mentality in relation to citizens with guns? There needs to be a middle ground between officers taking fire before shooting and officers shooting first and asking questions later. It's a very fine line in a very stressful situation.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  15. #29
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    West Point grad or not, humans are fallible as are Police officers. I still think LVMPD are corrupt goons, and that comes from their leadership and trickles down, but I am glad the details are starting to emerge. If he had just complied and left, with his business and money never going to Costco again he may still be alive. Sometimes decisions we make have consequences whether intended or not. The law specifically states that any private business has the RIGHT to ask you not to have a firearm on their premises just as much as you have the RIGHT to shop where you want. I hate when people start letting the 2d Amendment cloud their respect for personal and private property rights.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    If the manager distorted the information being given to the responding officers in order to get a faster response we have to ask the following question.
    Did the distortions by the manager elevate the stress level of the responding officers to the point that any ambiguous action by the victim could reasonably be misinterpreted by the officers and thereby cause them to over react resulting in his death?
    This was my big question of the day...were the facts as presented accurately presented by said manager from the start or was it simply that he had a disagreement with the customer due to the customer opening a package to check fit, spotted his ccw and started bleating wolfs in the pen...and blew it up from there, thereby effectively sending the LEO's into a potential active shooter nightmare...
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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