Tapes from Costco shooting now online - Page 3

Tapes from Costco shooting now online

This is a discussion on Tapes from Costco shooting now online within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It is a mistake to try to say only one party to this shooting is totally responsible, whether you pick Erik, Costco or the police. ...

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Thread: Tapes from Costco shooting now online

  1. #31
    Member Array Texas Yankee's Avatar
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    It is a mistake to try to say only one party to this shooting is totally responsible, whether you pick Erik, Costco or the police. We are also unlikely to ever know exactly what happened given the huge number of contradictory witnesses.

    On the other hand, from what we know already, it appears that it resulted from a perfect storm of what would otherwise be relatively minor mistakes.

    Clearly Erik must have acted like a jerk in the store although it is unclear how bad.

    The store manager also appears to have overreacted, given that as at least one witness stated, a clerk didn't have any problem helping Erik put the merchandise in his cart and that Erik went through checkout.

    And whether or not Erik made a move toward his gun, it seems to me to be bad police work, even given their state of minds from the tape, to go with their guns drawn after a man without a gun in his hand with a lot of innocents near by. It would have been much better to try to steer Erik to a more isolated location. That doesn't seem to have been attempted.

    If Erik had his gun in hand as he left store, it would be different, but the bulk of witnesses appear to indicate that he didn't have his gun in hand when he left the store.

    So it appears to me that Erik made mistakes, the store manager made mistakes and the police made with mistakes. If any one of them had not made the mistakes, Erik would be alive today.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    ChiefJason,

    Not once ever did you see me state that the person was deserving to be shot.
    I never stated that, never implied it nor do I believe that to be the case as based on the data we have available.

    What I did say, have said and do believe though is that he caused his own ultimate demise as per his own choices.
    Choices that began with sass talking store personnel upon being asked/told to leave as they noted that he was armed. I'd stated this prior, as in so many words.
    The rest as leading up to and at the time that officer one of three pulled a trigger toward him is secondary, and academic.

    The catalyst to this fire storm falls square in his own decision making, to not simply turn on heel and go by goods elsewhere....Upon being told his business was not wanted there because he was spotted as being armed.

    Had he done so there would be no story, news item, thread nor discussion....About a dead man.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    Still no end to the controversy.

    'Attorney Ross Goodman represents Scott's family. He says Scott never pulled a gun and was not acting in a threatening way toward officers. He says other witnesses will back that up. Some comments on 8NewsNOW.com from people who claim to have witnessed the shooting agree with Goodman.

    One person wrote, "I saw the whole thing go down from start to finish, and the cops were trigger happy. The guy never had a chance." "I was there, and I never saw this guy do anything with his gun," another person wrote. "The police started shooting immediately after ‘drop it' was yelled."

    Metro officers say they haven't heard those eyewitness accounts yet and encourage anyone who saw anything to contact them.

    "It sounds like he was trying to show the police his gun by lifting up his shirt," Castillo said. "These guys, they fired prematurely."

    Captain Neville says 911 calls will prove otherwise. "I could clearly hear the officers giving commands to the individual to get him on the ground," he said. "You could hear people yelling and screaming in the background. You could hear the shots being fired." "When you listen to that, it definitely sends a chill down your spine," Capt. Neville said.

    Goodman says he hopes surveillance video, along with the witnesses he's hearing from, will show Scott did nothing wrong."

    The family is also alleging a cover up http://www.ocregister.com/articles/s...ce-family.html
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    One thing we have to remember is that these "eye witnesses" need to be confirmed as actually having been there.
    Anyone remember the witness to shooting of Linda Franklin by the beltway sniper? The guy describing the middle eastern male in the Astro van with the AK-47? He was proven to be in the back of the store where he couldn't possibly have seen what happened.
    Notice how the lawyer "hopes" the video will confirm these witness statements. Notice how he doesn't say he is "confident" the video will conirm the statements. Seems to me this guy is keeping an open mind for a reason. Perhaps he is not as confident of some of his witnesses as he would like to be.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    MCP,

    Additional to you above...

    As I'd posted in the original thread, with supporting evidential research on the subject, so called 'witnesses' are notorious for how inaccurate they are to even major and significant details (i.e. your DC sniper example) even as the event may have occurred right in front of the persons being the witness...As in relation to video tape.
    All manner of people have been convicted and sent to prison even murdered per the death penalty as based on witness testimony, that later is found by way of science and physical evidence to be irrefutably incorrect. Even as the persons in their own mind are convinced they 'saw' what they say they saw.

    For a real world first person example of as much, click here and watch this short clip...

    http://viscog.beckman.illinois.edu/grafs/demos/15.html

    I've first person witnessed this same video shown to a classroom of students (shooters) including LEOs (professional observers) and the results were to say the least interesting.

    As well 'character evidence' is equally flawed as very often shown in real world experience, even as folks believe that once a good egg always will be for ever more a good egg (the he went to West Point 20 yrs. ago so he must be okay reasoning) as along with the idea of a tiger never changes/loses it's stripes idea as applied to persons pasts being reflective/indicative toward their present and future.

    Adult people living in adult view worlds know that one does not at all necessarily beget the other, and so as much must not be allowed to color relation of fact as by direct physical evidence and proof of action.
    Audio recording of real time data/information incoming beats very much fallible human recollection and perceptual re-memorization every day of the week, as related to criminal science and judicial history.

    Audio & Video documentation > Video only documentation > Audio only documentation > 'Witness' statement within 2 hrs.of event happening > 'Witness' statement within 12 hrs. of event happening > 'Witness' statement within 2$ or more hrs. of event happening, no matter how compelling the teller might be

    If I were to find myself in court on the defense side against an action I'd made relating to self defense.
    I would hope and pray that A?V if not video or even audio alone (911 tape) were available as rather than simply testimony by a human(s) as based on their scatter brain recollections in the immediate or worst fleeting most commonly short duration re-memorization of events past into the future by weeks,months or even years at time of actual testimony in a court house.

    - Ironside

    Additional reading:
    http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue...er&tversky.htm
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...e/text_06.html
    http://host.uniroma3.it/progetti/kan...eysymp_noe.htm
    http://www.truthinjustice.org/witness.htm
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #36
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    A new editorial on the incident here.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunned-...to-erik-scott/

  7. #37
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce130 View Post
    A new editorial on the incident here.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunned-...to-erik-scott/
    Great article. Thank you for posting it. I'm glad I reserved judgement until now, I would have made an ass out of myself.

    Looks like another bad shoot by LVPD officers...one involved had another fatal shoot in 06. If you're going to be a cowardly sheep and shoot everything that moves...perhaps this clown should be removed from wearing the badge to which he hides behind.

    I feel very bad for the victim and his family. Clearly the young Costco staff, including a 20+ yr old security guard, OVERREACTED. The police did as well.....they obviously came in pumped full of adrenaline due to the overexaggeration of the Costco staff.

    I hope the family sues the crap out of all involved. And I do not condone suing for every little incident. But in this case...it is more than warranted!

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    If the story is true,and he told them he was going to disarm,then he was pretty Ignorant,there is no way my hand is going anywhere near my gun,any movement towards my gun could be taken as a threat
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    If the story is true,and he told them he was going to disarm,then he was pretty Ignorant,there is no way my hand is going anywhere near my gun,any movement towards my gun could be taken as a threat
    Agreed, if that was the case. When police officers have their guns pointed at you, reaching for yours is a bad idea. If they want you disarmed they'll do it themselves.
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  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i am in total agreement with hands not reaching toward or getting anywhere near my firearm when a police officer is present whether they are barking orders or not...the account was taken per the reporter from the familys blog which confuses me even more...i am more interested in hearing accounts from people who were actually there..not family members who may only share what they want everyone to believe...

    this is a tragedy no matter how anyone looks at it...either a person made a grave error which caused his death by [police shooting or a group of officers made an error in judgement and shot someone wrongly...either way someone is dead and there are many who will suffer...

    i am looking forward to news without a slant to it and this article is written with a heavy one....

  11. #41
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    You have to read through the family bias. I.E choppers were called, CRT's were on scene as well as EMT's. A perimeter was being set up.

    Based on this and this alone....one can conclude that the young security (who placed the 911 call) overreacted and more than likely embellished the scenerio to get the police there faster to deal with someone they no longer wanted in their store due to their lack of understanding of CC laws.

    Coincedence the police REFUSE to release the 911 dispatch tapes?

    Not to mention multiple eye witness accounts that support the victim. The coroner reported 4 shots in the back and 1 under the armpit (along with 2 to the chest). Not a whole lot more to understand there.

    I have no personal bias either way. I follow my gut. Always. My gut tells me this stinks.

  12. #42
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i am in total agreement with hands not reaching toward or getting anywhere near my firearm when a police officer is present whether they are barking orders or not...the account was taken per the reporter from the familys blog which confuses me even more...i am more interested in hearing accounts from people who were actually there..not family members who may only share what they want everyone to believe...

    this is a tragedy no matter how anyone looks at it...either a person made a grave error which caused his death by [police shooting or a group of officers made an error in judgement and shot someone wrongly...either way someone is dead and there are many who will suffer...

    i am looking forward to news without a slant to it and this article is written with a heavy one....
    Here's a less biased account, by the local newspaper.

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/slaying-of-...-98223884.html

  13. #43
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EB31 View Post
    Based on this and this alone....one can conclude that the young security (who placed the 911 call) overreacted and more than likely embellished the scenerio to get the police there faster to deal with someone they no longer wanted in their store due to their lack of understanding of CC laws.

    .
    what lack of understanding of cc laws?...if they advised him he was not allowed to have a gun in the store he has to leave or choose to trespass...at the point he refuses to leave he becomes a trespasser...if he argues that he has a license and can stay he is wrong and has become argumentative...

    i'm not saying he should be shot for that...what i am saying is the store is well withtin its right to call the police and have him removed..did everything go the way everyone expected?...obviously not...

    i wont believe there isnt any video of this incident...i cant even imagine nobody capturing something on a cell phone...this is gonna be one long drawn out situation that i hope the truth whatever it is comes out....

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    From the pajamas media story we get:
    To hear the side of the story presented by Scott’s family, friends, and some eyewitnesses,
    (emphasis added)
    and:
    Other witnesses and the police claim
    (emphasis added)
    and:
    A blog from Erik’s family
    and:
    Two experts hired by Scott’s family
    So we have nothing new here from any disinterested third parties.......
    and:
    In another interview, Captain Neville claimed Scott did not listen to police commands:
    But earlier in the article they said other witnesses and police claim etc etc. Why don't we get to see any of those witnesses accounts of what happened? Where are the witness statements siding with the police here?
    Oh, wait! Here is a witness statement:
    Others on the scene did not see it that way. Robert Garcia directly conflicts the reports of police:

    I was close enough to see this guy’s face, and to see his hands, and to see his body go down.

    Walking just ten feet in front of Erik Scott, Garcia exited the Costco to see officers with guns drawn. He heard an officer yell: “Put it down! Get down!”

    Then he claims four shots were fired, and he instantly turned towards the victim:

    After hearing the shots I see the guy going down. I looked at — I saw his hands. His hands had no gun in it. I looked on the ground because — just, I just did that. I looked down and I didn’t see a gun. I saw what I thought were maybe sunglasses. And a pen.
    Lets look at the witness statement they decided to publish.
    The witness and Scott both exited the store with Scott ten feet (as stated above) behind the witness. He sees the officers with guns drawn. He sees the officers yelling at Scott. Shots are fired, then he turns and sees Scott fall to the ground.
    Can this witness whose statement is said to conflict with the police version tell us what Scott was doing immediately before the shots or while the shots were being fired? Nope, he was looking the other way.
    This matches up with several other eyewitness claims that officers William Mosher, Joshua Stark, and Thomas Mendiola fired nearly immediately after shouting conflicting commands at Scott, giving him little or no time to respond.
    (emphasis added)
    Nearly is kind of relative thing isn't it?
    And if he was reaching for or drawing a weapon how long are the officers supposed to wait? Is there an objective standard for that somewhere?
    It is quite possible that Erik Scott was gunned down without having committed so much as a misdemeanor crime, and that the officers who shot him will be merely the latest exonerated in a long line from an apparently unaccountable police force.
    It is possible. But that has yet to be determined.
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  15. #45
    Member Array Raider39a's Avatar
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    how come no surveillance video cams have been seen? did costco conveniently erased or lose them? it appears that this costco was not even posted as a no carry zone. any civilian CCWer could meet Mr. Scott's fate. did the LEOs shoot an unarmed man or did they shoot a man presumed to be armed, "acting crazy", "on drugs"? the released "scanner" videos are not definitive. Witnesses seem to indicate that Mr. Scott was shot without a firearm in his hands. is this definitive?

    Like the San Fran BART shooting, I'd like to see an unbiased video of the incident. unfortunately, I don't think this will never happen. 2 of the vids from the BART shooting was from civilian phones released by citizens; in the costco case, costco and the LVMPD have no interest in releasing such tapes if it reflects badly on them.

    I am going to reserved judgment on this issue until more objective evidence comes out... the coroner's inquest, surveillance videos, etc. My prayers go out to Mr. Scott's family though... no matter what they are the ones who lost a loved one.
    "embrace the suck" - our warriors in the sandbox... it implies that do the best you can in impossible conditions.
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