Tapes from Costco shooting now online

Tapes from Costco shooting now online

This is a discussion on Tapes from Costco shooting now online within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Link I can't really listen to them at work. Maybe some of you who can will tell us your impressions?...

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Thread: Tapes from Costco shooting now online

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Tapes from Costco shooting now online

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    I can't really listen to them at work. Maybe some of you who can will tell us your impressions?
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45


  2. #2
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    The first of the two recordings covers the initial dispatch through the arrival of the first units.

    The units were told the subject was armed, and had refused to leave, and that he was becoming irate with the manager.

    Into the second recording, first three minutes - units are arriving, getting people evacuated. Store staff reporting his location in the store and that he is opening merchandise packages.

    At ~4:00, "shots fired". No transmission of interaction between the officers and the suspect.

    Medical assistance was immediately requested (they had been requested on initial dispatch and then requested to respond in).

    At 7:44, another request for medical to enter the scene. An officer advises he's with the medical response and is relaying the message.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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    It sounds like there was a disconnect between fire /EMS and police communications, with the fire/EMS units staged away from the scene (as they should have been) and not being told to come in.

    Other than that, I don't hear much here that illuminates the events of that day.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    These are not COSTCO tapes.

    Correct information below...

    ~~~

    Someone has posted police scanner traffic during Costco shooting
    Posted by Thomas Mitchell
    Monday, Aug. 02, 2010 at 09:52 AM

    These YouTube audios are labeled: "Radio communications of the Las Vegas Metro Police Dept. dispatching officers to the Summerlin Costco store."

    Blog entry - http://www.lvrj.com/blogs/mitchell/s...ts?submitted=y
    Audio Source One - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCj5j7-TlMU
    Audio Source Two - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h15QF0ne0k4

    Note that it takes 05:28m before the first unit arrives on into the COSTCO parking lot, still in his cruiser requesting direction as to where he should go.
    Now if this person had been a real and aggressive if not active shooter, folks inside would be in trouble.

    There is much good and telling information in Audio Source One that is damning for his case of being victimized.
    Especially so beginning at 5:53. I have not listened to Audio Source Two for lack of time right now while at work.

    Edit: After listening to all of Audio Source Two nothing of real and useful information is provided there.
    Report of the man being shot preceded by a very brief open mic in which you can hear among _static_ a man yelling although what he states is not audible.
    The rest is just administrative conversation between multiple responding units, the EMS trucks (two) that had been staged in the parking lot and dispatch as related to their physical positioning at the COSTCO parking lot and toward crowd control. The second tape establishes well to my mind that the LVPD responded very well and in a measured professional manner to a high degree for what was simply a call for single person disgruntled with a gun.
    Prior to arrival they were even discussing how to best manage removal of unassociated shoppers from potential danger.

    Several people called this correctly as being a potential issue of man with gun with a smart/sass mouth in the original COSTCO thread.
    A case of man has a gun, it showed/printed, man got busted and asked to leave, man does not comply, man gives lip to the store personnel (manager) who has a right to ask he to leave, man goes on about 2A rights et. al., police are called and respond...

    To have been a West Point graduate he should aside from knowing how to use a firearm also know how to properly carry it concealed AND where open carry is lawful know that if you are busted by store personnel that they have express right to refuse you service on grounds that are not discriminatory including that of management discretion.
    Further moving/throwing store merchandise around and being argumentative with a store manager is something anyone should know is not appropriate whether they went to West Point, High Point (HS) or simply gained a GED.

    Not that being a West Point graduate or being a Green beret (special forces) means a hill of beans in the real _civilian_ world as related to law, lawfullness, ethics in action and personal responsibility or as in this unfortunate end result law enforcement and response.
    This to me very much appears to be a lesson in how to not carry, so as to get yourself deemed to be a threat/crazy and wind up being contacted with cautious aggression by law enforcement.
    As well it is a good lesson that so called 'witness' statements are only worth at best half the sliver in time of information they had available to them toward the totality of a story.

    One so called witness stated to the media that the man was acting normally prior to response by police. Clearly that is not and could not be true considering the not on site dispatch person is able to read back much of this mans private life details to arriving units. She got that info not from Google but as relayed to her direct from the on site store personnel who had called 911 requesting assistance with to their immediate view an unruly argumentative customer, with a gun.

    Several people in the original thread allowed their personal issue with and/or distaste toward police and police work as well as their own individual reverence for the West Point institution and.or their reverence toward persons who are or have been enlisted in the US military, all of which have _no bearing_ on the facts of this matter and the individuals actions as a civilian, to interfere with their ability to simply assess incident information as it was known.

    All the OMG he went to West Point and thus he could not have acted out or wrongly or unlawfully was then and is now proven to be a bunch of hooey.
    No disrespect to this man, his family and friends nor West Point or the Green Berets (Army Special Forces) which he was not there in the store representing...But this mans individual actions and choices in that moment as just another civilian citizen named 'Joe Blow' was not proper, and it got him killed. : |
    This incident and the responses at the original thread well show how easily discrimination as based simply in view can rear it's head. Had this man not been a West point graduate nor been military of any sort, would those same people have so vigorously come to his defense in spirit? Not likely.

    Thus the reason for my pointing out same in the original thread that his background was and is not of any relevance toward the specific of this incident.
    People have to be careful about how they think and as toward whom, as related to being just and justice.
    IMHO this incident including how things played out among the court of 'public opinion' is an excellent item of learning and education that civilian and LEO instructors should make note of as toward students in relation to carry of arms be it open or concealed, and use of lethal force.

    - Janq

    "A '413' at Costco....The man is inside the business, rear of. There's a '413' tucked into the back of his pants....The man inside the COSTCO is acting erratic, possibly throwing product around....All units shut down code when you get close, to the COSTCO....[Perp description by physical condition stated] Black 9mm is tucked to the rear of his pants....It looks like the subject is still inside the business and argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave as there are no 413s allowed. He is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around....He's ripping open packages. Store personnel are concerned about a 414a."
    - Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Dispatch, Audio Source One

    Note:
    '413' = Person With A Gun
    '414A' = Petit Larceny
    Source - http://www.bearcat1.com/radionv.htm
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    These are not COSTCO tapes.

    Correct information below...

    ~~~

    Someone has posted police scanner traffic during Costco shooting
    That's what I meant. Not tapes from Costco security but Police dispatch tapes from the Costco incident.

    Sorry for the confusion.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

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    How did it come out that he was Special Forces? I didn't read that in any of the other articles/posts... I think the dispatcher may have gotten bad info there - possibly from the shootee himself.

    All in all, Janq, I agree - there seem to be have been MANY steps that the shootee could have taken that would have prevented him getting shot. I'm still unclear (and probably always will be) on what happened AT THE MOMENT OF SHOOTING, but it does seem certain that the guy was, at the very least, acting the fool. When ANYONE acts the fool and is armed, tragedy is waiting.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    How did it come out that he was Special Forces? I didn't read that in any of the other articles/posts... I think the dispatcher may have gotten bad info there - possibly from the shootee himself.
    The subject reportedly told the manager he was a "Green Beret" and was authorized to carry a firearm.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    How did it come out that he was Special Forces? ...I think the dispatcher may have gotten bad info there - possibly from the shootee himself.
    OPFOR,

    It's reported as by the dispatcher in a very specific statement broadcast to responding officers.
    Featured in Audio Source One beginning as an interrogative by the dispatcher @ 5:50m.

    The information ostensibly came from the caller who was on the phone with 911, who we know as fact was the store manager (as also factually stated by the dispatcher) that had been in direct communication with the person [Erik Scott] causing the disturbance.

    There is no way for the dispatcher nor the store manager to know this information, without the person of concern [Erik Scott] having directly made such comment as tot he store personnel, who in turn reflected as much to 911 who is acting as dispatch.

    Seriously, very seriously...Let this man not die in vain.

    People here and elsewhere in Gun-fu land should very well take this incident as an example of how we as _civilians_ that make the choice to be armed with tools (of any sort) should take care in doing so, especially so as to be covert/concealed as was the intent here, and know that ones actions AND reactions must be measured and thought through not with emotion (and histrionics) but rather balance and thought toward diplomacy...Period.

    As well if a person _ever_ says they do not want you in their air space _because you are armed_ and to them that is a factor of fear/concern (!); You respect that request/demand/statement and you leave as in to remove yourself from the airspace/store/home/location. Period.
    Save the jabber jawin' sore behind sass mouthin' for your later on phone call to management, letter to corporate, the local newspaper editorial desk or even a day in civil rather than criminal court.

    Further what you might have done or who you may have been in the military means ZERO, and where you might have gone to school to learn anything (!) be it yesterday or twenty years prior is of NO REGARD on the streets to the view of _civilian_ persons interacting with you directly or observantly.
    Police commit crimes. Former and retired police who have been through academy commit crimes. Persons who went to fill in the blank college, university or academy of higher learning commit crimes and general acts of unlawful & stupid...Just the same as anyone else and the rest of us. They are no better nor different than anybody else.

    Further the Las Vegas police in this specific case have been demonized in the court of public & internet opinion for no good reason at all, but because they happened to repsond to a 911 call for public store assistance to a now unauthorized trespasser (he's been asked then told to leave!) as well as vandal (throwing and opening property) with concern toward he being a petty thief and/or strong arm robber as he is seen and thus _known_ to be armed with a firearm as viewed by the persons on site as well as responding police to be a _deadly weapon_.

    Think on this folks, and learn.

    - 'Col. Troutman'

    "Escalating inside, and he's still talking loud." - Officer responding and reporting as heard over dispatch audio in background
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Still at this point this is the proverbial 3 sided story. And if and when the store security tapes are released unless there is audio the circumstances might not be any clearer.

  10. #10
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Jang, I'm having trouble seeing these posts as coming from you. I mean, the very behavior that you are telling people to avoid, the prejudging and jumping to conclusions, are exactly what you yourself have done. Before YOU start demonizing the victim (Scott), you should have reconciled the various statements with conflicting content. Unless you can do that, you should refrain from saying that he acted stupidly, that his West Point and military training (you know, where they learn to respect authority, follow instructions, act responsibly) is irrelevant. Maybe you missed that he somehow drew his weapon (from the rear of the waistband of his pants, no mention of a holster) and actually pointed it at the LVPD (police statement after the shooting) but civilian eyewitnesses never saw that move. Just as you dismiss his military background as irrelevant as a judge of behavior and character, you also give the benefit of doubt to LVPD despite its established bad reputation in numerous previous police actions.

    My position is that this is all far too early to make any conclusions of what happened that day. We haven't seen any Costco video surveillance footage. We haven't heard all of the official police and 911 phone communications. We haven't heard any grand jury testimony from eyewitnesses to the tragedy. And where are all those ever-present cell phone videos? Until this all sees the light of day, nobody is guilty or innocent. Someone is certainly dead, and person(s) yet named are certainly going to be described as reckless, irrational and/or criminals. Let's back off of the rhetoric until we hear what is sworn to under oath.

  11. #11
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    Respectfully, the LVPD were "demonized" because thier version of events was in direct contradiction to SEVERAL other witnesses version of events. All we knew at the time - the collective "we" that is - is that the LVPD said one thing, several other witnesses said another. All I (specifically) said was that the matter needed a full investigation. These tapes are the beginning (or SHOULD BE the beginning) of much further looking into the incident.

    Personally, I don't care where he went to school or what he did in a past life. It's pretty clear that he was behaving VERY poorly prior to the cops showing up. Poor behavior, of course, is not justification for being shot. What matters to me at this point is what happened RIGHT WHEN the cops decided it was necessary to shoot. People act stupid in Costco (and everywhere else) every day; there must be a very real and very articulable reason to stop someone's actions with lethal force - being a jackass doesn't reach that threshold. As there is still no clarification on what that reason might have been in this case, I want more digging done.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Respectfully, the LVPD were "demonized" because thier version of events was in direct contradiction to SEVERAL other witnesses version of events. All we knew at the time - the collective "we" that is - is that the LVPD said one thing, several other witnesses said another. All I (specifically) said was that the matter needed a full investigation. These tapes are the beginning (or SHOULD BE the beginning) of much further looking into the incident.

    Personally, I don't care where he went to school or what he did in a past life. It's pretty clear that he was behaving VERY poorly prior to the cops showing up. Poor behavior, of course, is not justification for being shot. What matters to me at this point is what happened RIGHT WHEN the cops decided it was necessary to shoot. People act stupid in Costco (and everywhere else) every day; there must be a very real and very articulable reason to stop someone's actions with lethal force - being a jackass doesn't reach that threshold. As there is still no clarification on what that reason might have been in this case, I want more digging done.
    Aside from "It"s pretty clear he was behaving very poorly" I'm in complete agreement with you. Nothing is yet clear in this.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Rivers,

    Go to the original thread on this as it was reported.
    Read that thread for _context_ toward my statements.

    You are having trouble with my posts here because most probably you are not familiar with or have not read, in full, the original thread.
    Context here, as with most things, is key.

    Here is a link to that original thread which many folk here had been up on at that time;

    Bad: SUMMERLIN COSTCO STORE: Slaying of Army veteran shocks friends
    July 12th, 2010 05:35 PM
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...shocks-friends

    From here it should all be very much self explanatory.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OPFOR,

    Witness version of events were by people self described as not having actually been there at arms length including one guy who claimed to be a witness standing per his own description not even inside the store, listening but not actually watching directly as from a distance.

    Another witness stated he was standing right next to the guy as this all was going down and that the guy was doing nothing odd or wrong, when clearly as per the statements being made by the dispatch/911 person relayed in real time from the COSTCO caller on site that is not at all true.

    Sorry to say it but...Witness, shmitness. : \

    I will take a 911 dispatch centers recorded statements of known situation conditions and facts well ahead of factoids presented to the media by persons not even in the store and/or who were not actually involved or even as per their own statement not interviewed by police at the crime scene.

    Which is a lesson to take from this on it's own, for us all as as related to potential be we find ourselves caught up in an incident as the GG (shooter) against a threat...Whose friends, family & co-workers all say he was a nice guy who would give you the shirt ff his back, was an Eagle Scout, graduated from the Naval Academy and served four tours in <fill in the blank war>.
    You as just Joe Nobody (or Paul Policeman) and your word, versus that guy. Think on that.

    Tough call, so say the court of public opinion.

    You had better hope & pray for audio such as this from a 911 call & dispatch effort; Or better yet some bystander having a cell phone to 'witness' on video with audio too (!) your incident preceding and leading up to as well as following your use of force what ever it might be.

    There are many lessons to walk away with from this incident overall, including the 911/dispatch tapes. The above is just one of them.

    - Janq

    P.S. - Agreed that being a "jackass" is generally not reason enough to apply lethal force.
    But display of a firearm AND being overtly threatening AND placing other persons (store personnel) in fear AND being resistant (destroying property as well as running off at the mouth with sass talk) AND attempting to handle a lethal weapon while being actively detained in the process of being told to comply as in to go to the ground....Is and often does result in use of lethal force be it by gun or even assault to the body with batons to yellow and red zones.
    Don't get me wrong I am not an advocate for nor advocating toward undue and unchecked use of police and lethal force. That is not at all what I am or have past (original thread) been saying.
    Last edited by Janq; August 4th, 2010 at 12:52 AM.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    I gotta wait until more is known. I find it frustrating because this story has so many unanswered questions.
    It's easy to bash the cops, and it's easy to assume the victim did something to deserve being shot.
    Until we know more, I'll lay out.

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