Interesting self-defense shooting

Interesting self-defense shooting

This is a discussion on Interesting self-defense shooting within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I normally don't post this stuff, but this scenario has interesting attributes - such as a self-defense shooting in defending a neighbor's property, as well ...

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  1. #1
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    Interesting self-defense shooting

    I normally don't post this stuff, but this scenario has interesting attributes - such as a self-defense shooting in defending a neighbor's property, as well as a one-shot stop with a 9mm:

    http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/20...t?v=1281956813

    A Martinez man suspected in several Augusta car break-ins was shot last night by a 39-year-old homeowner who watched the thief enter his neighbor's truck.

    Milo Fredrick Hayes III, 19, of Mount Folly Road in Martinez, was shot once in the stomach after he tried to attack Brete Anthony Gunby, of 2014 Westfield Drive, not far from Gunby's home, according to Richmond County sheriff's Lt. Calvin Chew.

    Gunby spotted Hayes inside his neighbor's truck shortly before midnight and called deputies, Chew said. He then put a 9mm pistol in his pocket and walked outside to confront Hayes. Hayes attempted to walk away from the vehicle but Gunby continued to follow him and ordered him to stay at the scene until the deputies arrived.

    At one point, Hayes put his hand in his pocket, produced an umbrella stolen from the truck and lunged at Gunby. Chew said Gunby didn't know what the suspect had in his hand and fired. Deputies said Gunby had warned Hayes to not attack or he would shoot.

    "He was just following him to keep an eye on him until the deputies got there," Pletcher said.

    Hayes is in critical but stable condition at Medical College of Georgia Hospital, according to Investigator Ashley Pletcher. He will be charged with entering an automobile but is a suspect in at least two more car break-ins from earlier Sunday night. No charges have been filed against Gunby as police say it appears to be a case of self defense. Chew said the case would be submitted to the District Attorney's Office to decide whether he could be charged in the shooting.
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    He fully inserted himself into the situation, but I feel he did the right thing (or at least believed so) because it was his neighbor, he called the police and he wanted to keep track of the guy. In some places that would get him charged. in others, a pat on the back
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  3. #3
    Member Array BigRAM's Avatar
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    wow i never knew a permit holder can act like a leo and get away with shooting someone who intailly did nothing to harm them

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Statutes vary considerably in different areas in the amount and type of intervention by non sworn individuals in different levels of criminal activity.

    If an individuals conduct was appropriate prior to a realistically perceived threat and the response is viewed as reasonable based on the perceived threat, depending on area, there should be little problem.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    IMHO this is yet another case of poor judgment and should be filed under 'Do Not Do This At Home'.

    Chew said Gunby didn't know what the suspect had in his hand and fired.
    I'm not keen on going toward danger period, especially in regard to property...Never mind toward property that isn't even my own (!).
    Nothing in that truck nor about the truck overall is equal to or greater in value than that of _human_ life. It just isn't.
    Call the cops and observe.

    Engaging the guy to start was un-wise. He has no clue at all if the guy is armed or not, and by engaging him he gave up the element of surprise and by that placed himself behind the OODA loop. His single defensive measure was kept as within his "pocket" (!).
    But he gets lucky in that the thief did not do him right there where he stood, as from inside the cabin of the truck. Rather the thief chooses to _cease and desist_ and leave.
    To which the neighbor then further foolishly gives chase. For what, exactly?!

    The alleged thief is not obliged to respect in any way the request of this neighbor guy. Neighbor guy is NOT a LEO (!) and has no power to detain (stop & frisk), muchless affect an arrest.
    The alleged thief is well within his civil rights to walk away and go wherever else he might choose. As the thief is no longer in actuality a threat to anyone and is NOT in the action of committing a crime, the neighbor guy going after him is a poor choice.
    He had no idea if he was armed at all muchless to what degree. He placed himself in very serious rel danger potential. Over what? Property of another; A stolen and pocketed mini-umbrella!

    Poor judgment.

    Had that umbrella been a the alleged thief's own pocket carried handgun, the well meaning but poor thinking neighbor would himself be the one in the hospital ER....Or even dead.
    For why? Over a stolen mini-umbrella or in fact nothing taken at all as related to insured and easily repaired/replaced property, of another.

    Thank about this folks.
    As well think before you act...Aad put your life along with everything else you have to might stand to lose, on the line.

    - Janq would not at all do any of this
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    my my that is interesting...

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    I don't have much to offer that wasn't said above, but I do find it amusing that the guy's name is "Gun"by.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Jang
    "The alleged thief is not obliged to respect in any way the request of this neighbor guy. Neighbor guy is NOT a LEO (!) and has no power to detain (stop & frisk), muchless affect an arrest.
    The alleged thief is well within his civil rights to walk away and go wherever else he might choose."

    While I am not suggesting that the individuals actions were wise, based on a quick search, I would have to disagree with the above. Georgia appears to grant substantial citizens arrest powers. As always, I am open to further enlightenment.

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    Another piece of data for you on this, is that there has been a rash of car and home break-ins this summer and people have gotten very frustrated. It's always an investigation after the fact and few arrests have been made. I suspect that local politics will support the actions of this homeowner.

    I remember growing up as a kid, if you were walking across someone's property (that you didn't know) without permission, hearing a shot-shot or catching some rock-salt was to be expected. Somewhere along the line laws were written to protect the criminal. I don't condone the actions of Mr. Gunby, as they put him in unnecessary risk both from a legal and survival standpoint. But my how times have changed. Fortunately, in this case he appears to have local LEO support as well. It's still good to live in the South.
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  10. #10
    Member Array GrandBob's Avatar
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    Call me old fashioned but I'd like to shake the guys hand. He had the gumption to act and he did what he had to do. That I can respect.

    No, he ain't an LEO. He was simply being a good neighbor, a concept that doesn't seem to be understood much these days.

    I am amazed that the discussion that goes on, about how we aren't LEO's and how we don't need to do this or that. Then we moan and groan about how our neighborhoods are degrading, of how our belongings are no longer safe and how things just ain't what they used to be. Yet, precious few are the people that would do anything about it ,while others give it lip-service or feel proud of themselves for calling 911, knowing that the cops wont get there until the Perp is long gone and they fail to realize that they are part of the problem, as much so as the punk doing the stealing.

    My only regret is the the bad-guy lives to steal again...and he will steal again because he knows that in todays society the odds of someone calling him out for what he is doing are slim to none.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Guantes,

    A quick query toward GA code (statute) indicates the following which is quite specific...

    O.C.G.A. § 17-4-60
    GEORGIA CODE
    Copyright 2010 by The State of Georgia
    All rights reserved.
    *** Current through the 2010 Regular Session ***
    TITLE 17. CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
    CHAPTER 4. ARREST OF PERSONS
    ARTICLE 4. ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS
    O.C.G.A. § 17-4-60 (2010)
    § 17-4-60. Grounds for arrest


    A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

    HISTORY: Orig. Code 1863, § 4604; Code 1868, § 4627; Code 1873, § 4724; Code 1882, § 4724; Penal Code 1895, § 900; Penal Code 1910, § 921; Code 1933, § 27-211.

    O.C.G.A. § 17-4-60
    For my own personal ease I ran this query through LexisNexis but same result could be found the via the GA legislature website.

    Theft of a mini-umbrella and unlawful entry of a motor vehicle are not felony crimes.

    As well to this specific incident and the neighbor going after the alleged thief while armed with a firearm, there are further caveats and conditions that apply and even disallow use of force featured at; Crimes and Offenses - Title 16, Section 16-3-21

    (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other´s imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23, a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    (b) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in subsection (a) of this Code section if he:

    (1) Initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
    Consider that the news report states that the neighbor and police indicate...

    Gunby spotted Hayes inside his neighbor's truck shortly before midnight and called deputies, Chew said. He then put a 9mm pistol in his pocket and walked outside to confront Hayes. Hayes attempted to walk away from the vehicle but Gunby continued to follow him and ordered him to stay at the scene until the deputies arrived.

    ...Deputies said Gunby had warned Hayes to not attack or he would shoot.
    The neighbor went outside his home as toward danger, to such a degree that he feared for his wife prior and armed himself with lethal force tools.
    He then at point of confronting the alleged thief made contact to which the thief choose to stop, and leave. At no point here was a felony being committed, so with that the neighbor had no legal ground to stand on...As per the full and complete reading letter of GA statute toward grounds for arrest, by a private person (citizen).

    The rest as I'd noted is cause and effect. : \

    But do not mistake me as being pro-criminal or against private property ownership, or some other such non-sense.

    My stated point was and continues to be, the neighbor placed himself unwisely in very real personal danger exposing himself to very real potential for personal harm/injury and loss...Over what was simply easily replaced minor value property, of another. Not to mention that the motor vehicle itself is insured and for reason toward events such as this exactly.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #12
    Member Array GrandBob's Avatar
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    Assault is a felony.

    Dirt bag took a step towards him and got shot for being stupid.

    If I'm on the jury..the good neighbor walks.

    If you dont stand up, its just a matter of time until your neighborhood resembles a third world slum,complete with reduced property values and attitudes to match.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandBob View Post
    Assault is a felony.
    No, it's a misdemeanor.
    Assault with a deadly weapon/by manner of lethal force, that is a felony. Which did not occur here, by the alleged thief.

    Never mind that citizens arrest by definition as how this event is reported to have gone down, by way of the neighbor contacting the guy upon seeing not an assault but rather an unlawful entry of a motor vehicle...Is a misdemeanor crime at best.

    He didn't know the umbrella had been taken but even if he had and had been thinking to recover that, along with thought to 'detain' the alleged thief, he still is not in the right to do so by stature. There was no felony crime committed nor that he had observed.

    Standing up is not exclusive to putting yourself in harms way unnecessarily, without warrant or even lawful support.
    Standing up is though inclusive to being observant of your neighborhood and when untoward events occur contacting the authorities and requesting their presence, while in real time reporting to them what you observe.
    Had the man not been physically able to go make contact with the person beyond his window, and had rather called the police, would you or anyone think he a jerk who did not actively "stand up" for his neighborhood?
    I'd hope not.

    One last item; How did the neighbor know that the alleged thief was not someone that the neighbor _knew_ or even authorized to be at his vehicle and within it?

    Oops!

    My in-laws do this _all the time_ and we live in the same town which is small, rural and 'neighborly'.
    They will direct myself or my wife or other persons to go their car, back yard shed or even to enter their home to place or remove objects. They do not lock their car,house nor shed doors.
    So there I am going through my mother inlaws car looking for say her COSTCO member card (my wife uses hers often) or to recover my town dump pass (my wife loans ours to them when they need to dump fallen leaves from their yard). I would be armed covertly because I am always armed, covertly.
    Then some well intending but wholly _ignorant_ person rolls up on me talking some Deputy Dawg type stuff about who are you, what's your business or worst outright tells me that he is going to 'citizens arrest' me.
    You know what I'm going to think to do; Laugh/scoff and tell him/her to go pound sand (a commonly used term here in MA and New England) as in so many flowery words ways, that might involve use of American Sign Language too.
    Many average _law abiding_ people would react same. So, now what?!

    Fact is though I would _not_ react that way.
    Why?
    Because I'm not stupid, nor the type to be reactionary as by untempered emotion...And I know better than to assume that anyone who has the nerve/balls/craziness in mind to make contact with me as such to start muchless to make comments of citizens arrest quite likely would be armed in some manner, as covertly (i.e. gun in pocket).
    So to keep myself from being involved in a shooting, I would choose to scan this person and assess their demeanor. From there it's either choose to comply and explain things to the cops when they arrive or choose to talk this fool down and get them off my _inlaws_ property and out of my face.

    Something that well meaning neighbors should take into account and think of, as prior to acting.
    Oh and you had better be able to draw fast, like Picasso, if you roll up on a person(s) with this kind of conversation. You making appearance to start immediately gives away your advantage which they then can and in cases past have exploited.

    I was yesterday, Sunday, at my inlaws dressed in ruddy looking shorts, an old t-shirt, armed and poking around at their front then rear entry doors.
    From the outside looking in I would very much have appeared to been probing their home to make an ulawful entry. I do not live there.
    Fact is though my MIL had called me 2 hrs. prior as I was at the gym and asked that I run by her house to do an errand item for her. Now what if a neighbor had walked up on me and I said such things to this persons, and they choose to not believe me. Now what?

    - Neighborhood Watch

    http://www.nnwi.org
    http://www.usaonwatch.org
    http://www.familywatchdog.us
    http://www.ncpc.org/topics/home-and-...hborhood-watch
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandBob View Post
    Assault is a felony.

    Dirt bag took a step towards him and got shot for being stupid.

    If I'm on the jury..the good neighbor walks.

    If you dont stand up, its just a matter of time until your neighborhood resembles a third world slum,complete with reduced property values and attitudes to match.
    If you started the incident, then you don't get to cry self defense. If it wasn't lawful to try and detail him because he was not committing a felony...you can';t incite him to then commit a felony so you can shoot him.
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  15. #15
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    I think following the guy was ill advised and foolish. Confronting him with a shout from the door of "Get the hell out of there, the cops are on the way, you sleazy S.O.B." is however, something that I concur with. In fact, taking pictures of him while doing so would excellent. I would NOT have followed him nor approached too closely either.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

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