Mexican Drug Violence- Drug Cartels vs. Legalizing Drugs in America?

This is a discussion on Mexican Drug Violence- Drug Cartels vs. Legalizing Drugs in America? within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I may not understand all things very well but I do not totally understand the argument of legalizing drugs? I truly feel it would only ...

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Thread: Mexican Drug Violence- Drug Cartels vs. Legalizing Drugs in America?

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Mexican Drug Violence- Drug Cartels vs. Legalizing Drugs in America?

    I may not understand all things very well but I do not totally understand the argument of legalizing drugs? I truly feel it would only lead to more people having an availability to it leading to more people using it.

    - If more people use it then how is the demand to slow down to where the cartels are not in business?
    - I feel the higher cost and a lesser availability to kids keeps many kids off of drugs


    Please enlighten me?
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    I'll try to answer your question but please I am not advocating what I write here necessarily. I'm just presenting one point of view which some hold.

    The idea is that if weed especially were made legal the price would drop because a large part of the high price is due to the risk of the illegal acts needed to bring the supply in and distribute it. The argument for making it legal has two legs: 1) that it isn't harmful as we are frequently lead to believe; 2) that harmful or not adults at least should be free to do to their bodies what they wish so long as they harm no one else.

    High cost doesn't seem to be working to keep folks off these things. They just have to steal more to get them.

    Lesser availability is not attainable, the drug gangs make sure of that and presently the supply is plentiful, or so I am told. I don't know. I couldn't find it if I wanted to which I don't. I'd probably get arrested for trying to buy from a cop. Its not my thing and I don't know the game. Clearly, what we are presently doing isn't working so its time to try something else.

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    I may not understand all things very well but I do not totally understand the argument of legalizing drugs? I truly feel it would only lead to more people having an availability to it leading to more people using it.

    - If more people use it then how is the demand to slow down to where the cartels are not in business?
    - I feel the higher cost and a lesser availability to kids keeps many kids off of drugs


    Please enlighten me?
    I too am curious, even though I believe I can predict the "answers".

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    Actually the legalization aspect is another ploy by the government to tax you. Legalized drugs would be taxed like cigarettes and liquor giving the government more of your money to spend. The fact that we will have more zombies wandering the streets or worse behind the wheel, never enters the minds of money hungry bureaucrats. Of course crime will just go up because people will continue to buy from the cheaper source, the one that sells tax free.
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    Well, the revenuers over at BATFE do a fairly good job of keeping the moonshine competition down.

    I say we:

    1. Legalize weed and maybe some other substances.
    2. Increase funding and support to medical anti-drug programs.
    3. Beef up the BP and reorganize them into a new type of organization that is more like the Coast Guard and National Guard. Call them the Border Guard.
    4. Shore up the border's physical deterrence.
    5. Invade Mexico and eliminate the narco-terrorists. Do a little nation building and then turn the country back over to the civilian authorities.

    No I am not smoking right now. Maybe I should be.
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    I strongly support the legalization of weed; it would work wonders for my back pain and my RLS. However, if weed were legalized, the cartels would just switch to another drug to keep the income rolling in.
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    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    It's being between a rock and a hard place to do either: legalizing takes out all the illegal profit (though not the profit itself) and the violence that goes with it. But it also tends to increase number addicted: the two most abused drugs - alcohol and tobacco - are also the two completely legal drugs with the potential to addict. Not legalizing keeps the violence - unsupportable now in Mexico - but restricts numbers addicted.

    It's a MESS.

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    Legalize weed, and they'll switch to coke. Legalize coke and they'll switch to crack. Legalize that and the hot drug will be heroin. It won't end.

    Ask a kid why they do drugs vs. alcohol and you'll hear that drugs are easier to get, since they are under age. I really don't think there is a winning solution. Whatever you legalize, and you'll have more law-abiding zombies on that substance. You'll still have crime around what didn't get legalized.

    I don't think the problem is really drugs or alchohol. We'll always have addicts and crime will surround them like stink on poo. I believe the root problem is that our society is degenerating into a belief of entitlement. I have former friends who are now unemployed executives who refuse to get a job at Lowes, because it is 'beneath them'. So they sit around, collect their unemployment, and drink. I know a subcontractor that isn't taking any more work orders until his unemployment runs out. I see kids majoring in college in 'Theraputic Music' and 'Art', with little thought to how employable those specialties are (please don't get me wrong on that, I love the arts, but if you're good, nobody is going to care if you have a degree or not). We've become a society of 'follow your dreams' vs. 'get a job'. I know there are good folks who are reading this and struggling, looking for work - my heart goes out to you. Hang in there, and you will make it. This country was built on tenacity. Tenacity eventually wins every time. I just have a sinking feeling that for every person that is busting their butt trying to improve their situation, there are ten more sitting at home, in a fog of bong smoke, playing video games.

    Here come the cartels.
    Last edited by WHEC724; August 28th, 2010 at 09:07 AM.
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    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    This a very straightforward question, but first, two comments above need a quick reply:

    5. Invade Mexico and eliminate the narco-terrorists.
    Maybe I'm alone in my view, and maybe I'm the only person who feels this way, but right now the prospect of invading another country in order to make them do something we want them to do seems like a really bad idea. It costs hundreds of billions of dollars to do that, and from what I understand, we're already running a deficit. We cannot afford the war in Afghanistan - we're fighting it on credit right now. And the result we get when we do invade another country seems to have unintended consequences. So I'm going to oppose the idea that we invade Mexico.

    I have former friends who are now unemployed executives who refuse to get a job at Lowes, because it is 'beneath them'. So they sit around, collect their unemployment, and drink.
    Last I saw, unemployment insurance payments are very small - not enough to float the standard mortgage. So I call BS on anybody making the "Welfare queens in designer jeans" argument. As I understand it, getting unemployment benefits is humiliating and difficult, and you get peanuts. There will be no money for laying around drinking. Anybody who wants to do that is welcome to do so - they already payed into that insurance fund - ain't coming out of your pocket. And if they aren't working by the time their benefits run out, they are well and truly hosed.

    I see kids majoring in college in 'Theraputic Music' and 'Art', with little thought to how employable those specialties are
    Huge, massive error in thinking. A college education should not be considered "vocational school." For some professions, like medicine or law, some undergraduate prerequisites are necessary but the bulk of knowledge is conveyed in graduate school. The main point of undergraduate education is to inculcate students with the basic knowledge of our species. Those who want to study the arts and humanities will be exceptionally well suited to later pursue law, design, education, advertising, and many other productive careers. The idea that a degree is a cash ticket to a particular job is frightfully myopic. Most young people today will have a dozen or more careers ahead of them. They need to be adaptable and flexible - precisely the skills honed in arts and humanities majors.

    Now, about the drug thing, here's former Mexican President Vicente Fox - who should know something about Mexico's drug crime problem:

    "We must legalize the production, distribution, and sale of drugs." Fox argues that legalizing drugs would "strike and break" the economic power of drug-trafficking cartels operating in Mexico.

    "We need to break the balance between criminals, markets, transfer routes, and criminal associations sheltered by corruption, intelligently, with much less doses of violence," Fox writes.
    So any discussion of legalization should be centered on the economics of the drugs trade, and the moral issue can be pretty much swept off the table. It doesn't matter whether drugs are legal or not. People use them like crazy. They use them now. In very large quantities. Making them illegal does not curb usage, it only clogs our prisons and criminal justice system with the unlucky people who get caught. Huge expense and a waste of our tax dollars. Legalization would not cause an increase in use, because criminalization does not deter use. People who want drugs get them and use them already. Anything they want. As much as they want. Any time they want.

    If you have a teenage son or daughter, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that they can obtain virtually any drug imaginable right at school - and they know who to buy from. Legalization would at least get pharmacies enforcing age and ID restrictions, while putting the underground trade mostly out of business. It's just like anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    I believe the root problem is that our society is degenerating into a belief of entitlement.
    Hammer meet nailhead.

    Well actually, it's a little deeper than that, but without getting into a huge essay, we need to stop treating the symptoms and treat the cause.

    Why do people want to do drugs? Because they have nothing fulfilling in their lives and they're bored, stupid, and/or flailing blindly for something to make them feel better about themselves.
    Az

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    It has nothing whatsoever to do with sense of entitlement or actual entitlement. That is a word thrown around by those who want to bash the poor or the elderly or who simply aren't thinking clearly about what it means.

    There were plenty of drunks, cocaine, and heroin addicts in the 19th and early 20th century before there was a single welfare program of any sort in this country and before any of this stuff was made illegal.

    The fact is, people self-medicate. They also experiment from curiosity (that's part of human nature), sometimes with bad results, and they take risks for the sake of taking risks (also part of human nature--thank goodness or we wouldn't have astronauts). These aspects of human behavior are at the root of the problem and it has nothing to do with our modern world.

    Drug use and abuse in one form or another has been going on throughout history in almost every society if not in every society. In some it has been incorporated into religious practice. Why? Because there is something about the human condition which requires people to seek to reduce pain, both physical and emotional. "Entitlement" whatever that is, has nothing to do with this problem.

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    These kinds of things have to be decided based on as much factual data as can be gathered. When people make uninformed decisions based on what they've seen in the media, etc., the wrong thing can sometimes happen. We've all seen what can happen with some of the crazy gun laws that have been passed that have nothing to do with data.

    One interesting and useful thing to do is to analyze what has happened in countries where this has been done.
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Other countries HAVE cleaned themselves up. Columbia for instance was the same horror Mexico is now. A concerted government/law enforcement effort got Escobar at least neutered, and when he was later killed it broke the back of that drug cartel and Columbia has continued to have a much stronger stance regarding drugs.

    So, the immediate problem is a Mexican response mired in corruption/money and impotence. No one can change that here or anywhere but in Mexico.

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    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    I may not understand all things very well but I do not totally understand the argument of legalizing drugs? I truly feel it would only lead to more people having an availability to it leading to more people using it.

    - If more people use it then how is the demand to slow down to where the cartels are not in business?
    - I feel the higher cost and a lesser availability to kids keeps many kids off of drugs


    Please enlighten me?
    If we didn't buy the drugs they wouldn't come across the border to sell the drugs as there would be no buyers for the product. If it became legal you would kill the illegal trade market. Just like they killed the moon shine market.

    I don't know about you but I'm not going to start using drugs just because they're legal. If a kid wants to smoke pot he doesn't have to look far to find it. It's readily available and has been for many years.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

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    As it stands right now, kids can get 'illegal' drugs (like pot, coke and meth) easier than they can get 'legal' drugs (like alcohol). This proves to me, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the famous 'war on drugs' is a compete and utter failure. As we step up the 'war on drugs', the drug cartels just keep getting richer and more violent. In fact, I would bet the drug cartels actually accept the 'war on drugs' as a necessary part of doing business. Surely the cartels realize that if we started legalizing some of these substances (pot, for instance), that their profits would dramatically decline.

    It's time for a major paradigm shift in our attitudes towards drugs. I would suggest a reasonable compromise and say let's start by legalizing pot. Tax it and regulate it just like alcohol. Then sit back and see what happens. No one can predict with 100% certainty what the outcome will be, but I think it will be better than the status quo.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

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