Bad: Gun dealer goes to prison in TX.

This is a discussion on Bad: Gun dealer goes to prison in TX. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The worst part is the real criminal remains at large and is free to go about his business legally. Sigh..... http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/09...nt-id-illegal/...

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Thread: Bad: Gun dealer goes to prison in TX.

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Bad: Gun dealer goes to prison in TX.

    The worst part is the real criminal remains at large and is free to go about his business legally. Sigh.....

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/09...nt-id-illegal/
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

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    Member Array MSteve's Avatar
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    Even if they are not going to prosecute the strawman, they could have at least deported him. There's not enough info to make a judgement for or against the dealer. One side makes it sound like he got screwed. The other makes it sound like he knew he was doing the wrong thing and is just pissed he got caught.
    AlabamaConstitution of 1819: That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defence of himself and the state.
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    If I was the FFL and theres 2 guys pointing and gesturing and one guy hands the other one cash to buy a gun,I'm not only not selling him a gun,I'm gonna get them thrown out and possibly arrested
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    I find the whole rule to be kind of stupid. Sure you need to keep guns out of criminals' hands, but maybe the guy with the cash owes the second guy. What's to stop them from handing cash over before the going inside? As long as FTF transactions outside of a gunshop are unregulated, there's no way to really stop strawman purchases. (not that I'm for regulating them though)

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    He was found guilty by a jury so there has to be more to it. Unless of course the jury is a bunch of Illegals.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  7. #6
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Got to be careful with anything you do these days. I'm in the process of getting my FFL. Every now and then, I consider the risks involved.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    If events transpired as described by the agents I have absolutely no problem with the dealer getting locked up. IMHO all three parties involved should be in the slammer.
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  9. #8
    TOF
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    If he was a licensed gun dealer he should have run the sale through NICS shouldn't he.

    If he did and NICS didn't have a problem with selling to aliens we may have an explanation for US guns finding their way into Mexico.

    If he was a licensed dealer and failed to run a NICS check I understand the conviction.
    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Got to be careful with anything you do these days. I'm in the process of getting my FFL. Every now and then, I consider the risks involved.
    There are risks involved in any type of business. If you apply for and obtain an FFL you are accepting the responsibilities bestowed upon you by the Federal government and State laws.

    There is probably more to this story. The dealer was stupid if he expected ATF would not be present at a gun show especially in a border state or Florida.

    You might want to read this and ask your senator to support the bill. http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=6019
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    If he was a licensed gun dealer he should have run the sale through NICS shouldn't he.

    If he did and NICS didn't have a problem with selling to aliens we may have an explanation for US guns finding their way into Mexico.

    If he was a licensed dealer and failed to run a NICS check I understand the conviction.
    The dealer would be required to contact NICS for a background check of the person who presents proper ID and who fills out Section-A of ATF form 4473. Question 11 on the form is very clear.

    11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    Question 11 on the form is very clear.

    11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.
    Still, the whole thing is meaningless. They guy could answer Q.11 truthfully, walk out the store and immediately decide to sell in a FTF transaction. As long as the first buyer is legally allowed to own, then the burden of responsibility falls on them, not the FFL. Again, I see no real need for strawman rules. The buyer is going to do what they want with it. Even if the FFL physically sees Buyer 1 give the gun to Person 2 and actually KNOWS Person 2 to be illegal, then the FFL should just have to call the cops, not be legally liable.

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Like the straw purchase rules or not, they are quite clear and they are the law. This FFL was an idiot to do what he was convicted of doing.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    Still, the whole thing is meaningless. They guy could answer Q.11 truthfully, walk out the store and immediately decide to sell in a FTF transaction. As long as the first buyer is legally allowed to own, then the burden of responsibility falls on them, not the FFL. Again, I see no real need for strawman rules. The buyer is going to do what they want with it. Even if the FFL physically sees Buyer 1 give the gun to Person 2 and actually KNOWS Person 2 to be illegal, then the FFL should just have to call the cops, not be legally liable.
    This is where we have the conflicting information in the statements. If we believe the ATF agents the FFL was negotiating the price with person number two and then accepted the money and ID from person number one. That is what he got nailed on. If he had negotiated with the person who filled out the paperwork and gave him the money, and that person two minutes later gave the weapon to the other guy, the FFL could be sitting at home having a beer right now while the other two would be waiting to be deported.
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  15. #14
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    Whats the problem?? I thought illegals weren't illegal anymore. They pretty much have the same rights as citizens these days.
    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein

    "People in Arizona carry guns," said a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."

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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Hey...ummm...I hate to rain on the "Throw the FFL under the bus" parade....

    But where did it say this guy was an FFL-holder??

    I mean, if you or I (non-FFL holders) were to sell one of our guns, could we be considered a "gun dealer"?

    I read other articles from other forums that this guy was a NON-FFL holder....and was selling something from his private collection....

    So...as far as every yelling "NICS check! NICS Check! He was doing something illegally because he didn't do a NICS check!!"---he was a private citizen selling one of his guns.....you know, something some of us do from time to time. There is nothing that requires you to sell through an FFL...(nor should you be required to..)...and the guy he sold it to (the ILLEGAL ALIEN) had a VALID TX drivers license....(granted, it's not as good as a concealed carry permit, but how was this guy supposed to know he was an ILLEGAL?)

    And why isn't the ILLEGAL ALIEN in jail or deported??....

    Don't believe everything you read in the news: "gun dealer" <> FFL-holder
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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