Las Vegas Costco shooting ruled justifiable

This is a discussion on Las Vegas Costco shooting ruled justifiable within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I don't know about this one.I originally thought Erik was responsible for the shooting, but after listening to the 911 tapes and stuff, i don't ...

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Thread: Las Vegas Costco shooting ruled justifiable

  1. #16
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    I don't know about this one.I originally thought Erik was responsible for the shooting, but after listening to the 911 tapes and stuff, i don't know. I think both sides made errors.

    The Costco security guy did sound like a anti gun mall ninja being way too paranoid and may have turned the situation way worse than it had to be.Sounds like the guy thought every time Erik put his hands by his side he was " going for the gun"lol.And once they knew he had a gun they just labeled him some criminal and automatically he was there to steal stuff and kill people.Listen to the tape its kind of funny.And I never really heard them say they told Erik to leave and he refused.And why would both him and his girlfriend continue casually shopping if some huge ordeal was made?

    I also think the cops might have jumped the gun too, maybe because of Costco's overreaction. You could hear the officers in the background and from the first command to gunshots was only 4 seconds.Thats not long when your surprised by officers with guns in your face while your shopping.

    So who know what happened. Both sides are telling different stories. His girlfriends story does seem to go along with the 911 tapes better than most.
    Last edited by ItsMyRight2; September 30th, 2010 at 06:23 AM.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

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  3. #17
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    First Janq I applaud you.

    Second whenever an attorney makes the statement "Well I had more witnesses or evidence that could have cleared my client but I didn't want to because of................" to me he is indicating that his witnesses and evidence are not going to do squat for his client.

    Third McGyver I am sorry that you feel the need to have to protect yourself from wrongful arrest or harassment by carrying a recorder and have lost your confidence in LE.

    This case as so perfectly paraphrased by Janq was rather simple. An armed person who was addicted to and under the influence of an opiate narcotic after being confronted by police drew his weapon and pointed it at the armed officers and they shot him.
    His girlfriend who was there and you would assume would give the best testimony in support of this case was not called by the choice of the family attorney. Alledged witnesses who could have supposedly cleared up the matter were not called by choice of the family attorney.
    IMO is has nothing to do with the LVMPD doing something wrong they did what they were trained to do and citizens on the panel made the decision not the state or the PD. The statement that makes no sense to me at all is that Costco killed him? Should they ignore the armed person in the store acting in a strange manner?
    Do I feel pity and sorrow for the family you bet, I also feel sorrow for the officers who had to take a life and all the others this case affected but it comes down to Eric Scott set the situation in motion the moment he took the pills and strapped on a firearm.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #18
    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    But I guess bottom line is.....Costco does have a no gun policy. So if Erik would have followed the store rules or even left when employees reminded him of policy, this whole thing would have never happened. So ultimately Erik's actions or lack of, are responsible for the chain of events that happened.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2 View Post
    You could hear the officers in the background and from the first command to gunshots was only 4 seconds.Thats not long when your surprised by officers with guns in your face while your shopping.
    4 seconds or 4 minutes, the time doesn't matter. If he never reached for/grabbed/whatever he did with his gun he never would of been shot.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I'll wager this is not even close to over.
    I'll wager you're right. But I think it might not follow the path most are expecting. I don't know if the civil suit is going to go anywhere. Perhaps a filing in the hopes that Costco will just cut a check to make it all go away.
    What I want to see is a full investigation into Scott's medications. If you recall, one of the doctors named by Erik's dad as treating him says he never met him. The doctor is former military and says he is sure if he had met him either professionally or personally he would remember him. Why does Erik's dad believe this doctor to have been treating Erik? If any of Erik's meds were supposedly prescribed by this doctor, was the scrip signed by hand or was the signature stamped? Erik's girlfriend used to work in this doctor's clinic. She was fired last year.
    Inquiring minds want to know why she was fired, and did she maybe steal some prescription pads before she cleared out?
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    The store, security contacts, the phone conversations, 911 tapes, narcotics are of no consequence. You pull a gun on cops that are pointed in on you, you're going to get shot.

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2 View Post
    I also think the cops might have jumped the gun too, maybe because of Costco's overreaction. You could hear the officers in the background and from the first command to gunshots was only 4 seconds.Thats not long when your surprised by officers with guns in your face while your shopping.

    So who know what happened. Both sides are telling different stories. His girlfriends story does seem to go along with the 911 tapes better than most.
    how many shots could you take with a gun in your hand in 4 seconds?...would you even dream of placing your hand on your gun or removing it from your person in your hand in the presence of police officers?....

    both sides are telling different stories...one side beign a group of people who werent there...other than his girlfrind whose best defense at the time was informing that he was military and a concealed weapon license holder....which isnt going to amount to a hills of beans once the firearm is presented....and his parents who insist he is a good person...i am sure he was..unfortunately he was a misguided soul who made several critical errors that day that cost him his life unnecessarily...

    cosco asked him to leave...simple compliance would have averted the entire situation...his arguments to them were irrelevant and counterproductive as it made him a confrontational man with a gun....

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2 View Post
    But I guess bottom line is.....Costco does have a no gun policy. So if Erik would have followed the store rules or even left when employees reminded him of policy, this whole thing would have never happened. So ultimately Erik's actions or lack of, are responsible for the chain of events that happened.
    Not even that.

    If Erik had very simply not made the active choice to expose and handle his firearm while in the store, there would have been no story and he'd be alive right now today.

    Even if he had done everything else including opening packages and throwing them around, being loud and belligerent to store staff, being asked then told to leave...And even after that having the cops called on him.
    He would have been a-okay fine, and alive.
    But because he singularly was armed and made this known to the people who interacted with him directly, that is the spark that caused the wildfire to burn his life down.

    IMHO this is yet another very good real world non-hypothetical example and reason as to why to be carrying concealed literally means to be _concealed_ (!).

    Here at DC.com it seems that every other week some big debate thread comes up in the 'Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions' area where some person asks about to what degree of concealment they should/have to apply as a minimum.

    Can I get away with a black gun under a sheer white shirt?
    Can I wear a shirt that rides just at my waist line and not have to concern myself with reaching upward or stooping over?
    If I'm in a store and a customer sees my piece bulging from within my shirt (grip) or the barrel exposed and visible as below my short (OWB slide type holster) am I okay to the letter of the law in being concealed?

    And a whole mess more of IMHO simple questions as silly attempts to actively dodge what is a not difficult to comprehend concept.
    Others including myself have even gone so far as to provide the Webster dictionary definition of 'concealed' quoted within a post, and invariably people respond that such statements are silly.
    Well clearly that is not a truth as based on the vast number of these type threads posted here alone never mind real world direct situations that people post, including this worst case scenario news item.

    Folk need to understand and comprehend that concealed literally means concealed.
    As in to not be seen nor known by anyone as an observer, minimum.
    Further you don't go and tell people (!) among an NPE (non-permissive environment) that you are armed and then try to justify your actions to them and some how convert them to your way of thinking by making commentary about your wholly irrelevant to anyone but you military service or citing to them the equally irrelevant laws, ways and traditions of some other state (What they do in Texas is of zero concern to those in Nevada!).

    Oh, and talking loudly and acting like a crazy person...That never ever changes the hearts and minds of people.
    A life and staying alive fact.

    Do not do these things folks...And you too can shop at COSTCO and other known NPE type public commerce areas (e.g. Whole Foods) without hassle, worry or being shot down by responding police...Leaving your family to pin it's hope and finances (attorneys are EXPENSIVE!) on nothing but a store security system which very often is non-functional (!) and/or the statements of so called 'witnesses' (Joe & Jane Blow-Average) who them self generally cannot recall the color shirt you were wearing or what exact product they had in their own cart never mind the specifics of a given circumstance in whole with detail.

    To my report reading eye and 911 dispatch tape listening ear, there are very many lessons to be learned from this situation as benefit for us all. Including the well known NRA firearms safety rule of _do not_ carry firearms while under the influence of psycho active substances (alcohol, drugs, whatever...).

    Some of us here though have and will walk away wiser and smarter.
    Others will remain in an all cops under all circumstances fog of active denial akin to the Scott family, hurt as they are.
    And there are the people who will continue to ask the same questions as last week next week about how little can they get away with so as to be 'concealed'.

    Give it a month or three, there will be another case of same in some other locality.
    These incidents DO NOT help our cause as by view of the general public including those who may be/were on the fence.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    how many shots could you take with a gun in your hand in 4 seconds?
    This. ^^

    Yesterday I posted video of myself showing just this, real world.
    I'm not even 'fast', but there I'd demonstrated firing three rounds at just under 21' (target start point was 21') in one (1) second...With all of my hits falling into a measured 7" small mans torso sized target at an initial spread of less than 2".
    Followed by an at speed magazine change and second volley of fire in three even faster again within the same 7" circle with a total spread including outlier of roughly 4 inches.

    The gun wasn't even a race gun...Just my regular everyday carry 1911 shooting commercial off the shelf bought at Dick's Remington green box training/hardball ammo.

    Now imagine being a police, responding to a call of a man with a gun who is being belligerent and irrational while claiming to have been "Green Beret" (Army 'Special Operations')...And it is known that he is carrying a firearm per direct observation and follow on commentary by this person.
    Lets say that person was me.

    How in the heck would a reasonable minded person think to respond to such known conditions.
    A human being who himself has a family at home who loves him. A guy who is just trying to work a 9 to5 or 12 to 10 like every other working stiff in this existence.
    Cops are not paid to stand in the line of potential fire, and get shot. It seems many people do not understand this fact.
    They are not required to give criminals breaks. Criminals may though give them self a break, by _choosing_ to not act criminally.

    If I were a police, I too would give no breaks to allow people like _me_ to shoot them down in the streets.
    My family loves me same as does Erik Scott's.
    Even as I did not attend school at the Citadel, was not military (denied by the Marines due to out of my control genetic physical ailments) and do not make use of nor abuse drugs of any sort prescribed or otherwise.

    It's been interesting, and sad, to see the responses to this thread and that of the prior three (!).
    This forum has a fair number of working law enforcement; Civilian, federal and military too.
    I can only imagine how they and their family members must feel upon reading the statements about them by folks here.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Not even that.

    If Erik had very simply not made the active choice to expose and handle his firearm while in the store, there would have been no story and he'd be alive right now today.

    Even if he had done everything else including opening packages and throwing them around, being loud and belligerent to store staff, being asked then told to leave...And even after that having the cops called on him.
    He would have been a-okay fine, and alive.
    But because he singularly was armed and made this known to the people who interacted with him directly, that is the spark that caused the wildfire to burn his life down.

    IMHO this is yet another very good real world non-hypothetical example and reason as to why to be carrying concealed literally means to be _concealed_ (!).

    Here at DC.com it seems that every other week some big debate thread comes up in the 'Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions' area where some person asks about to what degree of concealment they should/have to apply as a minimum.

    Can I get away with a black gun under a sheer white shirt?
    Can I wear a shirt that rides just at my waist line and not have to concern myself with reaching upward or stooping over?
    If I'm in a store and a customer sees my piece bulging from within my shirt (grip) or the barrel exposed and visible as below my short (OWB slide type holster) am I okay to the letter of the law in being concealed?

    And a whole mess more of IMHO simple questions as silly attempts to actively dodge what is a not difficult to comprehend concept.
    Others including myself have even gone so far as to provide the Webster dictionary definition of 'concealed' quoted within a post, and invariably people respond that such statements are silly.
    Well clearly that is not a truth as based on the vast number of these type threads posted here alone never mind real world direct situations that people post, including this worst case scenario news item.

    Folk need to understand and comprehend that concealed literally means concealed.
    As in to not be seen nor known by anyone as an observer, minimum.
    Further you don't go and tell people (!) among an NPE (non-permissive environment) that you are armed and then try to justify your actions to them and some how convert them to your way of thinking by making commentary about your wholly irrelevant to anyone but you military service or citing to them the equally irrelevant laws, ways and traditions of some other state (What they do in Texas is of zero concern to those in Nevada!).

    Oh, and talking loudly and acting like a crazy person...That never ever changes the hearts and minds of people.
    A life and staying alive fact.

    Do not do these things folks...And you too can shop at COSTCO and other known NPE type public commerce areas (e.g. Whole Foods) without hassle, worry or being shot down by responding police...Leaving your family to pin it's hope and finances (attorneys are EXPENSIVE!) on nothing but a store security system which very often is non-functional (!) and/or the statements of so called 'witnesses' (Joe & Jane Blow-Average) who them self generally cannot recall the color shirt you were wearing or what exact product they had in their own cart never mind the specifics of a given circumstance in whole with detail.

    To my report reading eye and 911 dispatch tape listening ear, there are very many lessons to be learned from this situation as benefit for us all. Including the well known NRA firearms safety rule of _do not_ carry firearms while under the influence of psycho active substances (alcohol, drugs, whatever...).

    Some of us here though have and will walk away wiser and smarter.
    Others will remain in an all cops under all circumstances fog of active denial akin to the Scott family, hurt as they are.
    And there are the people who will continue to ask the same questions as last week next week about how little can they get away with so as to be 'concealed'.

    Give it a month or three, there will be another case of same in some other locality.
    These incidents DO NOT help our cause as by view of the general public including those who may be/were on the fence.

    - Janq

    +10
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

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