.357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt)

This is a discussion on .357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Gunates, That doesn't ring bells with me. I'd seen the report though featured over at the Officer Down memorial; http://www.odmp.org This was several years ago ...

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Thread: .357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt)

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Gunates,

    That doesn't ring bells with me.
    I'd seen the report though featured over at the Officer Down memorial; http://www.odmp.org
    This was several years ago maybe 4 or 5....Just after I'd moved to MA.

    It was very well detailed, and sad.
    IIRC the attacker survived his wounds though he eventually was stopped by the officer during her fight.
    I believe she was LAPD...But they have so many different types of police out there; She could have been state, sherriff's dept. or possibly town or some other county. It was definitely CA and an off duty female LEO at her/a home though.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Just to add a cliche to the discussion. Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting several times.

    The bulk of my latest shooting has been 5 rds from concealment. I'll switch it up with the first 2 point shooting and the last 3 aimed, or all 5 point shooting. Last time I got to shoot I put 5 in a paper plate at 7 yrds in a hurry. Shooting a G19.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  4. #18
    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    FWIW .... a report on the local news said that the suspect was shot in the chest, which was why I posted that...

    Now it is upper body.... However it sounds like it was a totally glancing blow, as one witness said the robber turned to the side just a bit..... It sounds like the BG just lucked out.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    It sounds as if it would have been a glancing blow even if he had used a lighter caliber gun.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Seriously.
    This too is another reason why I'm not a big fan of high energy rounds such as .357 and .44 Magnum for human against human self defense, as they have tremendous recoil and with that _delay_ in a typical shooters ability to align the sights (in this case point the guns bore) then toggle the trigger a second, third, fourth, fifth or more times as inside say 2 seconds reaction time. - Janq
    This is what a salesman at the gun show was saying. For this reason he was a big advocate of the FN five seven. He said it was the easiest handgun to shoot next to a 22 long rifle. Follow up shots are easy and controllable with plenty of ammo. He really sparked my interest. I may have to get one eventually but the price needs to come down.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Maybe you are remembering different accounts of LA are female LEOs.

    Mas Ayoob did an "Ayoob Files" feature on Stacy Lim several years ago (which I am unable to find). She also appeared on a TV show. Followed home by some bangers, one of whom who was going to steal her truck for his GF. Approached her with a drawn 357. She stepped out of her truck and IDed herself as an LEO. He started shooting and so did she. She took a 357 directly into the left ventricle, causing a near blow out. Then she ran down the SOB around her tailgate and onto the sidewalk while turning him into a sieve. Her roommate witnessed the shooting and called 911. One minute response time for EMS, one minute ride to a trauma center. Arrested several times in surgery but several months later went back to work.

    Video:http://www.policemag.com/Videos/Chan...Encounter.aspx

    LAPD:http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...27#Stacy%20Lim

    Officer Stacy Lim

    After a softball game and a stop-over at the Northeast Station to check her work assignment, Officer Stacy Lim arrived home in Canyon Country at about 1 a.m., Saturday, June 9, 1990. She didnít know that the car behind her had followed her from Los Angeles, or that it carried four hardcore gang members, intent on stealing her truck. One of the young bandits was armed with a .357-Magnum revolver. Now, because she believed that she had been followed for some unknown reason, she carried her 9-millimeter service weapon in her hand. When she saw the large pistol in the hand of the advancing figure, she was ready to defend herself.

    Officer Lim did a humane thing Ė instead of immediately firing at the shadowy figure with a gun, she purposely advised him that she was a police officer. From a distance of about 5 feet, the young gunman, without warning, responded to Officer Limís unselfish act by firing his weapon directly into her chest. The bullet struck her with an impact equal to being hit by an 18-wheeled truck doing 60 miles-an-hour. The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found. Critically wounded, the officer brought up her weapon and fired one round which struck her assailant. He then turned and ran, but the officer followed him and fired three more rounds, which hit and fatally wounded the gunman. He had fired all six of his bullets at Officer Lim, who now returned to the front of her vehicle to fight off any further attackers, unaware that the others had driven away in panic. They were all taken into custody the same day.

    Now realizing her danger from her massive wound, she tried to reach her doorway, but collapsed. Her roommates, alerted by the shooting, found her and called for medical aid. The officer had already lost so much blood, that that alone made her condition critical.

    Police and Medical personnel at the scene estimated that she had no chance for recovery, and doctors at the hospital gave her only an hour to live. Her family was summoned.

    However, she refused to die and survived three full cardiac arrests. By responding to a 90-minute heart massage, she showed her will to live. Her sense of duty and personal courage were equaled only by her reverence for the life of another, because she had placed herself at dire risk by giving a warning to an armed attacker. She had given him an opportunity to surrender and live. Her action upheld the highest traditions of the Los Angeles Police Department and is hereby recognized by awarding her with the Medal of Valor.
    StacyLim.jpg
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Stacy Lim !!!

    Soon as I read her name I stopped and was like yeah that's the lady!
    Thanks for the post...No time right now (on the phone) but I'll go back and re-read the story to update my memory).

    Thanks!

    - Janq

    Edit: Looks like I had it reversed, she survived and she was the one to take the shot by .357 (!!).
    Hmm...I must have commingled her story with that of another/secondary.
    Again thanks for the assist.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    Good work sir! I'll see if I can include your drill in my training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    +1 Biker

    Below is video of one test (among several others) that I run against myself quarterly as related to proficiency.

    In this case I was doing a demo for a pair of basic handgun students (husband & wife) at the end of an instruction session as I was beginning to pack us up to depart.
    They had asked me to show them something that is real world useful toward self defense, as beyond the 100 level basics I'd covered with them prior.

    So off the line I'd told them the tale of the Dennis Tueller experiment along with the experience of General Dozier (this is relevant to them as per the mans specific career type) and the gun game drill that later became associated to both persons names referred to as the Tueller Drill and the multiple threat Dozier Drill.

    From that came the subject of being accurate and fast is _critical_, in real life effort to stop a threat (!).
    Within the most often finite dimension of space, to move toward safety being distance if not cover or concealment, and time which always counts down to zero.

    This thread story here emphasizes that point; In that you must make functionally accurate hits and they have to come quick.

    The scenario here is that I am imagining to be literally blocked in some way that I cannot flee to either side and my back is against a wall. My first thought option is always to leave/flee to put distance between me and a threat. Default. But if that option is not offered/allowed then what?

    For example being walked into a back room, bath room, or pizza stores freezer.
    Being inside of a mall or store and pigeonholed with no other place to go.
    Or being at a restaurant, movie theater, bar or pool hall and finding myself standing back against a wall/immovable force (other people as victims like me).

    Actuality is that as I'm on a public space range I cannot do such things as move off the X nor draw from a holster (against range rules).
    Further my gun is placed on a table in front of me, charged and ready for use, in that I have to put hand to it and fire a limited number of rounds onto a charging target AND reload to continue firing for as many rounds as possible until distance and time inevitably counts down to zero...Or I am out of ammunition, which ever comes first. Just like in real life.

    January 2010
    Springfield Armory 1911A1 9MM 5" Govt. model
    Target type adjustable rear sight with green fiber optic front by Dawson Precision ~ EDC gun
    Videographer and producer: The male student, who for reasons of professional confidentiality shall remain un-named.
    http://yfrog.com/2mfile387z

    I practice and can do same at near same speed with same accuracy shooting one handed, including out of the holster from concealment draw.
    But limited to .40 S&W at the highest recoil energy levels. Beyond that though my shot to shot splits increase to a degree that is not for me comforting, as specific to finite timing self defense.

    Note the time shown on the video clip.
    That's five seconds total first target movement (button press) to final shot made.
    Many people real world are not fortunate enough to have so much time available, before the threat is at their throat.

    - Janq
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array BlueNinjaGo's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm blind, but where did it say he used a .357? And if I am blind, and it did say it was a .357, does it say the gun or the cartridge was? It may have been a .357 loaded with .38's. I wonder if it was a JHP or FMJ.

    But I agree across the board with the no magic bullet idea. Keep firing until the threat ends, or you cannot fire anymore.

    Also glad he stood up to the thug. Hopefully he just doesn't get bailed out and serve a few months.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Let's check the story again:



    If that .357 had hit the perp COM, he'd have been in a for a long hospital stay, assuming he survived. So it sounds like a grazing shot that didn't hit much - maybe just winged him on the side.

    At close range, you might only get one or two shots off before you have to engage H2H with an attacker, but a couple of big rounds in the chest should take the fight out of the guy pretty quick. Shock is going to set in and the odds are going to be with the defender the longer things go on. I definitely agree that the Mozambique was called for here.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    if he was actually shot somewhere vital with that one shot,...like the gut, heart or lungs his hospital stay would have been a bit longer I think, probably a flesh wound or a shoulder hit or somewhere else not as major

    ^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    I tend to be in this camp on this one.
    If the perp would have sustained 2-3 shots, in the breadbasket/pumphouse region, from said .357, he would not have walked out of the store.




    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    As much as I love the .357 Magnum 125 grain pill, there is no magic bullet, and it is required that you put the bullets where they will do the most good.

    Here's a test for your carry gun:

    5 Rounds at
    5 Yards in
    5 Seconds inside
    5 Inches

    If you can do that from the holster you're good to go. I'll even accept from the low ready for the average Joe/Jane Blow. This is not fast, BTW, and in no way does it mean you are "ready" or even carrying the right caliber/gun for you. It is just a good standard of measurement to help one guage where they are on the shooting scale for up close and personal matters.

    Now go do this with your support hand only.
    I can't with the .357 Magnum. Two hands, no problem. One hand, the primary, again no problem. When I revert to doing this with the support hand I am much slower, and my group tends to spread. Since people often have to resort to using their support hand as their primary hand, due to injury during a gunfight, it makes sense to either have a second gun in a suitable caliber for the support hand, or a caliber in the primary gun that is suitable for the support hand.

    Biker
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    +1 Biker

    Below is video of one test (among several others) that I run against myself quarterly as related to proficiency.

    In this case I was doing a demo for a pair of basic handgun students (husband & wife) at the end of an instruction session as I was beginning to pack us up to depart.
    They had asked me to show them something that is real world useful toward self defense, as beyond the 100 level basics I'd covered with them prior.

    So off the line I'd told them the tale of the Dennis Tueller experiment along with the experience of General Dozier (this is relevant to them as per the mans specific career type) and the gun game drill that later became associated to both persons names referred to as the Tueller Drill and the multiple threat Dozier Drill.

    From that came the subject of being accurate and fast is _critical_, in real life effort to stop a threat (!).
    Within the most often finite dimension of space, to move toward safety being distance if not cover or concealment, and time which always counts down to zero.

    This thread story here emphasizes that point; In that you must make functionally accurate hits and they have to come quick.

    The scenario here is that I am imagining to be literally blocked in some way that I cannot flee to either side and my back is against a wall. My first thought option is always to leave/flee to put distance between me and a threat. Default. But if that option is not offered/allowed then what?



    Actuality is that as I'm on a public space range I cannot do such things as move off the X nor draw from a holster (against range rules).
    Further my gun is placed on a table in front of me, charged and ready for use, in that I have to put hand to it and fire a limited number of rounds onto a charging target AND reload to continue firing for as many rounds as possible until distance and time inevitably counts down to zero...Or I am out of ammunition, which ever comes first. Just like in real life.

    January 2010
    Springfield Armory 1911A1 9MM 5" Govt. model
    Target type adjustable rear sight with green fiber optic front by Dawson Precision ~ EDC gun
    Videographer and producer: The male student, who for reasons of professional confidentiality shall remain un-named.
    http://yfrog.com/2mfile387z

    I

    Note the time shown on the video clip.
    That's five seconds total first target movement (button press) to final shot made.
    Many people real world are not fortunate enough to have so much time available, before the threat is at their throat.

    - Janq

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^Thanks biker & jang^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Definitely food for thought.

    Good video jang!!!!
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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  12. #26
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    In point shooting terms, this BG need a 'zipper' with a final head shot.OMO
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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