.357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt)

This is a discussion on .357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Wow.... the clerk shot the would-be robber with a .357 to the chest, and the BG still attacked him .... Thankfully no good guys were ...

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Thread: .357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt)

  1. #1
    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    .357 to the chest - and he still kept coming (Syracuse, NY Robbery Attempt)

    Wow.... the clerk shot the would-be robber with a .357 to the chest, and the BG still attacked him .... Thankfully no good guys were hurt.


    http://www.cnycentral.com/news/story...tate&id=518159

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    That's why you keep firing until the threat is ceased, or you empty the magazine/cylinder....Regardless of caliber.

    One stop shots can only be depended on in TV shows and spy books.
    There was several years ago a female officer (IIRC LAPD) who was attacked at her home by a gang member looking for retribution.
    She shoot him at ~ 4' center mass with a .357 Magnum and he didn't he even flinch per her own report. They fought and she tussled with the guy to retain her gun and fight off his knife at the same time. She wound up getting him IIRC tow more times but she was fatally wounded in the struggle by stabbing wounds.
    She willed herself to stay alive until support and EMTs arrived, gave a statement to police of what occurred...And then died of her wounds that night.

    People wonder why cops will shoot at a person multiple times (see Erik Scott case) as rather than once.
    This story here is an excellent example of why.

    Lots of people walk off getting shot once or even twice (See Tupac and Fifty Cent).

    - Janq
    Last edited by Janq; September 29th, 2010 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Typo
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    I agree Janq..... I would have squeezed the projectile switch a 2nd or 3rd time as needed..... In fact maybe that should be on all guns from now on, like a "best use" label...."For proper bad guy stopping - pull trigger - repeat as necessary"

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    Good comments, Janq.

    Quote from original article:
    "The male suspect, later identified as 29 year old Rayshawn Johnson of Syracuse, was transported to Upstate Hospital where he was treated and released with a non life threatening injury"
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    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    The article does say he was shot in the "upper body" and an earlier report has the BG being treated for a "non life threatening injury". Sounds like a shoulder wound or something along those lines.

    Either way, kudos to the store owner for standing up for what's his. And glad to hear he and his family came out of this incident unharmed (not smart for son and wife to jump in, could have ended real badly).

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Let's check the story again:

    After Rayshawn Johnson was treated for his gunshot wound and released from the hospital, he went straight to the Justice Center and was charged with attempted robbery
    If that .357 had hit the perp COM, he'd have been in a for a long hospital stay, assuming he survived. So it sounds like a grazing shot that didn't hit much - maybe just winged him on the side.

    At close range, you might only get one or two shots off before you have to engage H2H with an attacker, but a couple of big rounds in the chest should take the fight out of the guy pretty quick. Shock is going to set in and the odds are going to be with the defender the longer things go on. I definitely agree that the Mozambique was called for here.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Seriously.

    This too is another reason why I'm not a big fan of high energy rounds such as .357 and .44 Magnum for human against human self defense, as they have tremendous recoil and with that _delay_ in a typical shooters ability to align the sights (in this case point the guns bore) then toggle the trigger a second, third, fourth, fifth or more times as inside say 2 seconds reaction time.

    Actual time to react before Deebo is laying on top of you, hands around your gun or neck.

    This is one of several reasons why I personally am a fan of 9MM or .38 special running _modern_ (!) duty grade ammo.
    For most people snapping off say 3 shots in one (1) second with either is very much possible even as the shooter might be aged as was the case here.
    Low recoil all things being relative and with that low muzzle rise and torque in the hand upon being fired.

    If a shooters last name is say Miculek or Munden then okay high energy revolvers for self defense would likely not at all be a functional issue.
    But the vast majority of humans walking this earth are not named as such and do not as shooters have their developed hand and forearm strength muchless shooting skill for speed on target, regardless of how many years/decades they as Joe/Jane Blow might say they have been toggling triggers recreationally or what ever else.

    One has to consider you this is a matter of life and death.
    Betting on a single shot fired to save ones life is like going all in on your first hand of poker.

    $0.02 Street

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    People have survived being hit with every cartridge known to man. People have died from every cartridge known to man. Gotta hit them where it counts, and sometimes more than once--regardless of caliber.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    if he was actually shot somewhere vital with that one shot,...like the gut, heart or lungs his hospital stay would have been a bit longer I think, probably a flesh wound or a shoulder hit or somewhere else not as major
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    As much as I love the .357 Magnum 125 grain pill, there is no magic bullet, and it is required that you put the bullets where they will do the most good.

    Here's a test for your carry gun:

    5 Rounds at
    5 Yards in
    5 Seconds inside
    5 Inches

    If you can do that from the holster you're good to go. I'll even accept from the low ready for the average Joe/Jane Blow. This is not fast, BTW, and in no way does it mean you are "ready" or even carrying the right caliber/gun for you. It is just a good standard of measurement to help one guage where they are on the shooting scale for up close and personal matters.

    Now go do this with your support hand only.
    I can't with the .357 Magnum. Two hands, no problem. One hand, the primary, again no problem. When I revert to doing this with the support hand I am much slower, and my group tends to spread. Since people often have to resort to using their support hand as their primary hand, due to injury during a gunfight, it makes sense to either have a second gun in a suitable caliber for the support hand, or a caliber in the primary gun that is suitable for the support hand.

    Biker

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    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    People have survived being hit with every cartridge known to man. People have died from every cartridge known to man. Gotta hit them where it counts, and sometimes more than once--regardless of caliber.
    Yep that's why shoot until the threat is neutralized..

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    That's why you keep firing until the threat is ceased, or you empty the magazine/cylinder....Regardless of caliber.
    Quoted for absolute truth.

    Shoot until the threat stops, whether it takes 1 round or a dozen. There's no such thing as a guaranteed one-shot stop with any caliber handgun.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    +1 Biker

    Below is video of one test (among several others) that I run against myself quarterly as related to proficiency.

    In this case I was doing a demo for a pair of basic handgun students (husband & wife) at the end of an instruction session as I was beginning to pack us up to depart.
    They had asked me to show them something that is real world useful toward self defense, as beyond the 100 level basics I'd covered with them prior.

    So off the line I'd told them the tale of the Dennis Tueller experiment along with the experience of General Dozier (this is relevant to them as per the mans specific career type) and the gun game drill that later became associated to both persons names referred to as the Tueller Drill and the multiple threat Dozier Drill.

    From that came the subject of being accurate and fast is _critical_, in real life effort to stop a threat (!).
    Within the most often finite dimension of space, to move toward safety being distance if not cover or concealment, and time which always counts down to zero.

    This thread story here emphasizes that point; In that you must make functionally accurate hits and they have to come quick.

    The scenario here is that I am imagining to be literally blocked in some way that I cannot flee to either side and my back is against a wall. My first thought option is always to leave/flee to put distance between me and a threat. Default. But if that option is not offered/allowed then what?

    For example being walked into a back room, bath room, or pizza stores freezer.
    Being inside of a mall or store and pigeonholed with no other place to go.
    Or being at a restaurant, movie theater, bar or pool hall and finding myself standing back against a wall/immovable force (other people as victims like me).

    Actuality is that as I'm on a public space range I cannot do such things as move off the X nor draw from a holster (against range rules).
    Further my gun is placed on a table in front of me, charged and ready for use, in that I have to put hand to it and fire a limited number of rounds onto a charging target AND reload to continue firing for as many rounds as possible until distance and time inevitably counts down to zero...Or I am out of ammunition, which ever comes first. Just like in real life.

    January 2010
    Springfield Armory 1911A1 9MM 5" Govt. model
    Target type adjustable rear sight with green fiber optic front by Dawson Precision ~ EDC gun
    Videographer and producer: The male student, who for reasons of professional confidentiality shall remain un-named.
    http://yfrog.com/2mfile387z

    I practice and can do same at near same speed with same accuracy shooting one handed, including out of the holster from concealment draw.
    But limited to .40 S&W at the highest recoil energy levels. Beyond that though my shot to shot splits increase to a degree that is not for me comforting, as specific to finite timing self defense.

    Note the time shown on the video clip.
    That's five seconds total first target movement (button press) to final shot made.
    Many people real world are not fortunate enough to have so much time available, before the threat is at their throat.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    That's why you keep firing until the threat is ceased, or you empty the magazine/cylinder....Regardless of caliber.

    One stop shots can only be depended on in TV shows and spy books.
    There was several years ago a female officer (IIRC LAPD) who was attacked at her home by a gang member looking for retribution.
    She shoot him at ~ 4' center mass with a .357 Magnum and he didn't he even flinch per her own report. They fought and she tussled with the guy to retain her gun and fight off his knife at the same time. She wound up getting him IIRC tow more times but she was fatally wounded in the struggle by stabbing wounds.
    She willed herself to stay alive until support and EMTs arrived, gave a statement to police of what occurred...And then died of her wounds that night.

    People wonder why cops will shoot at a person multiple times (see Erik Scott case) as rather than once.
    This story here is an excellent example of why.

    Lots of people walk off getting shot once or even twice (See Tupac and Fifty Cent).

    - Janq
    + 100 There is no other way than the way given above. Minimum of 3 rounds every time and continue if more are needed until the threat is neutrailized.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Jang,

    Is this the one you meant. If so it was LASD not LAPD.

    http://da.lacounty.gov/mr/archive/2008/011508a.htm

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