Montana Honor Student Faces Expulsion for Leaving Hunting Rifle in Car at School - Page 2

Montana Honor Student Faces Expulsion for Leaving Hunting Rifle in Car at School

This is a discussion on Montana Honor Student Faces Expulsion for Leaving Hunting Rifle in Car at School within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I know it's easier for the authorities to respond to the letter of the law ...and prosecute to the fullest. But such mindlessness often results ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Brass63's Avatar
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    I know it's easier for the authorities to respond to the letter of the law ...and prosecute to the fullest.
    But such mindlessness often results in injustice and ruined lives.
    The law isn't an end in itself...it's a means to an end. (In this case, safety.)
    Everyone knows this girl was no threat. The folks in charge should've responded accordingly.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass63 View Post
    I know it's easier for the authorities to respond to the letter of the law ...and prosecute to the fullest.
    But such mindlessness often results in injustice and ruined lives.
    The law isn't an end in itself...it's a means to an end. (In this case, safety.)
    Everyone knows this girl was no threat. The folks in charge should've responded accordingly.
    The law is also more than a means to an end. It is supposed to be a path to justice. When an innocent act is punished there is no justice.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I agree that she should have just left, but she might not have been able to do so. If they had announced that they were doing a search, they probably would not let anyone leave until their car was searched. And running to your car and trying to drive away would probably have made the sittuation worse.
    Walk softly ...

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The law is also more than a means to an end. It is supposed to be a path to justice. When an innocent act is punished there is no justice.
    There is no "justice system". Only a "legal system".

    The legal system leaves very little room for justice...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    When it's obvious it was safe, there was no threat to anyone, she had no 'agenda', she did not touch it, move it, it was unloaded, and it was an oversight, and not a deliberate act.
    I agree with just about everything that has been posted so far. It was a dumb mistake. It shouldn't cost her her future. So on and so forth. However as gun owners, we absolutely must accept a greater responsibility for knowing and remembering the laws concerning gun ownership. She most certainly shouldn't ever forget she has a firearm in her car. Period. First off, if someone breaks into her car and steals it then there's one more stolen gun out on the street and only benefits criminals. Secondly, had she not forgotten, she wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place.

    People commit acts of unspeakable violence every day. Saying someone 'obviously didn't have an agenda' is fairly presumptuous unless you are the someone you speak of. How do you know that she hadn't planned to shoot another student that day? Maybe they were just absent so she couldn't follow through. The truth is that it doesn't matter what she looks like, what her grades are, her hair color, etc. and nobody can say for sure that she just made an honest error. With the number of school shootings that have occurred in our country, schools and law enforcement can't take the attitude that since this person didn't appear to be a threat, they must not actually be a threat.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by punk rocka View Post
    The truth is that it doesn't matter what she looks like, what her grades are, her hair color, etc. and nobody can say for sure that she just made an honest error. With the number of school shootings that have occurred in our country, schools and law enforcement can't take the attitude that since this person didn't appear to be a threat, they must not actually be a threat.
    Isn't this the same peculiar upside down stuff that causes so many employers to disallow guns in the company parking lot--- the employee must not be a threat, being the reasoning.

    It is also the upside down reasoning why everyone is messed with at airports. Everyone must not be a threat.

    When I was in school, and contrary to what Jang posted about the Federal law being in place since our grandparent's day, we had a rifle team and we brought rifles to school, then we traveled to a range after school. I submit we rifle toting folks with guns on a HS campus were not a threat.

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Pretty cut and dry to my eye.

    It is in fact a Federal offense and has been since the time of her grandparents being in HS.
    This is not an obscure item of law...Never mind state law and/or school policy.
    She should have ditched school, moved her car and by that suffered detention or whatever.

    If you gonna bring guns to school...Park _off campus_.

    - Janq
    incorrect: bush in 90, clinton in 95 ;)

    Back in the 80's we had a shooting and hunting club at school and I used to bring my 10/22 and .410 in and either leave it in the truck or put it in special lockers in the gym area they had set aside for such things.

    Times have change

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Isn't this the same peculiar upside down stuff that causes so many employers to disallow guns in the company parking lot--- the employee must not be a threat, being the reasoning.

    It is also the upside down reasoning why everyone is messed with at airports. Everyone must not be a threat.

    When I was in school, and contrary to what Jang posted about the Federal law being in place since our grandparent's day, we had a rifle team and we brought rifles to school, then we traveled to a range after school. I submit we rifle toting folks with guns on a HS campus were not a threat.
    Unfortunately it isn't upside down reasoning, it's called being proactive instead of reactive and while I completely agree that it's far from perfect, until you can teach everyone who needs to know how to determine intent based on looks alone, then it's the best we are going to get.

    Seriously, what's your solution? Do nothing and just go back to the way things were 40 years go? Times are different now and it's not just as simple as saying 'when I was a kid...'. When you were a kid, how many other kids went on killing rampages in their high schools? I don't remember anything like that happening when I was young. When I was the age my children are now, I played outside all the time. I wasn't supervised and watched like a hawk constantly. I rode my bike all over the place and would be back when the sun was going down. Raising a child in that manner today would be an insane risk, and I most certainly wouldn't take it. It's not upside down, it's reality.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by punk rocka View Post
    Seriously, what's your solution? Do nothing and just go back to the way things were 40 years go?
    For many things, I would say yes indeed. We are scaring our kids to death. We are punishing them for nothing. We are so restricting them they can not develop normally. A few years back I heard an Army General complain that too many of their recruits had never ever been in any kind of a fight, and that this was affecting the manner in which training had to be conducted. While I don't think school kids should be fighting, I do think they should be play fighting. Today, such is not allowed at school.

    As for school shootings/massacres, these have been mercifully rather rare events. It makes no sense to squeeze down on 30 million kids because 5 or 6 over several years time, a decade or more, have done horrid acts.

    Everyday we get on the road knowing that we are facing risk, but assuming that most of the time most of the other drivers will be doing the right thing-- enough at least that while motoring deaths still happen too often, most of us don't concern ourselves much about that in our daily decision making. School shooting and airline hijackings are rare events in the scheme of thing. The real reality is that putting excessive emphasis on rare threats is indeed doing stuff upside down.

  10. #25
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    Seriously, what's your solution? Do nothing and just go back to the way things were 40 years go?
    How bout we punish those that actually commit a crime? A severe crime deserves a equally severe punishment.
    When you were a kid, how many other kids went on killing rampages in their high schools?
    The fact that most people in my area atleast had easier access to firearms back then leads me to believe that firearms is not the problem. Maybe we should look for the real problem and not interfere in the lives of honest citizens.

    Michael

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by punk rocka View Post
    Unfortunately it isn't upside down reasoning, it's called being proactive instead of reactive and while I completely agree that it's far from perfect, until you can teach everyone who needs to know how to determine intent based on looks alone, then it's the best we are going to get.
    Being proactive is the intent of these kind of rules, but the "zero-tolerance" policies are not the way to go. This will drastically affect and disrupt this girls life, because the administrators are not allowed to use their wisdom and judgement.

    While there is no single profile of a school shooter, there are certain warning signs and indicators. This girl shows none of them from what we can tell.

    The administrations and legislators are afraid to actually make decisions because they might be blamed for something, so they remove any chance or decisions to be made. They have no spine, so they pass on their problems to all of the kids. We now get our education in beuracracy and ridiculousness at a much earlier age. I just hope that for my childrens' sake, I can help them learn that lesson before it destroys their future like it has for this girl.
    Walk softly ...

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    She did it because she thought it was the right thing to do.

    She had no idea of how stupid things can get when fear is involved and it will likely screw up her life.

    Never mind it was an oversight with no ill intent.
    - I'm sure she had the best intentions, but I'm in the "don't tell" group. At best, she would have realized her mistake and would have not done it again. At worst, they would have found the gun in her car and she would have been in the same exact situation that she is in now.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by punk rocka View Post
    Times are different now and it's not just as simple as saying 'when I was a kid...'. When you were a kid, how many other kids went on killing rampages in their high schools? I don't remember anything like that happening when I was young.
    So, when there were guns in schools, there weren't rampages?

    It almost sounds like active shooters prefer the disarmed victims found in zero-tolerance, gun-free zones...


  14. #29
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    Big Stick,
    I could not agree more with your post.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #30
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    Sounds like the kid was brought up right... taught what is right and what is wrong. She thought making the staff aware of what she had was the right thing to do... well due to her good intentions she is now facing expulsion.

    The problem isn't what she should have done, it is how common sense and logic is completely absent in today's society. She meant no harm, she had no intentions. It isn't like she was a troubled kid. It was locked in the trunk of her car not locked and loaded in her locker.

    I may not agree with what is happening to her.... but rules are rules... I hope like heck she gets a break and someone high up in that school has a brief moment of logical thought.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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