Gunman dead after opening fire at Florida school meeting (MERGED)

This is a discussion on Gunman dead after opening fire at Florida school meeting (MERGED) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Brass63 I'm sorry, but IMHO I think the lady with the purse was simply delusional. Maybe it's all the TV programs that ...

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Thread: Gunman dead after opening fire at Florida school meeting (MERGED)

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass63 View Post
    I'm sorry, but IMHO I think the lady with the purse was simply delusional.
    Maybe it's all the TV programs that show 100lb women going hand to hand...and beating the daylights out of 225lb BGs... (e.g. Chase)
    ...but unless she was trying to save a family member in there, she was as suicidal as the BG.
    Agreed on the old lady part, but not on the reference. The old lady's problem was size, age, (ie physical condition) and lack of knowledge/h2h training. I have seen and participated in numerous scenarios where a 100lb soaking wet woman can and does take on men twice her size SUCCESSFULLY. Granted, they were all in a training/classroom environment. That doesn't mean the women came out unscathed, but with the proper training and mentality it is quite a very possible scenario.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Not an option here - such meetings are prohibited places for CWFL holders to carry in Florida.
    Do pocket knives and other makeshift weapons count? That nut was so focused on his perceived wrongdoers, that he was completely oblivious to the old bat walking right up to him.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Do pocket knives and other makeshift weapons count?
    This is why, even when I can't carry the gun, I take the flashlight (see picture). The crenellated bezel with our without the 200 lumens of light can make a pretty good weapon in a pinch.

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  5. #64
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    One thing everyone needs to keep in mind when criticising the security guard is that he's off camera, never seen nor heard on the tape, and no one only watching the video, or who wasn't there, knows at what point he became involved on scene. He could have been elsewhere in the building and only responded after one of the released individuals notified him and the shooting began. I haven't seen any reports that he was present before this all began, and I find it dificult that a retired LEO would stand by while a gunman pointed a pistol at these people and then fired several shots.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Do pocket knives and other makeshift weapons count? That nut was so focused on his perceived wrongdoers, that he was completely oblivious to the old bat walking right up to him.
    "Common pocketknives" are not defined as weapons under FL statutes, thus are exempt from CWFL requirements. Using a pocketknife to take on an armed nut would be no less hazzardess than using a heavy purse.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentcursor View Post
    I think everyone is missing the real threat - a lady with a purse. Obviously, purses are a dangerous weapon and should be banned.
    I'm mailing that woman a brick to carry in her purse. Bricks don't need a CWFL!
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  8. #67
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Ya know, I have yet to figure out why nobody moved to assist when that woman was beating him with the purse. It might not have been effective, but her actions were certainly distracting. They might not have been armed, but a couple of those guys could have pinned him down while his gun arm was occupied with the woman beating him with her purse.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    One thing everyone needs to keep in mind when criticising the security guard is that he's off camera, never seen nor heard on the tape, and no one only watching the video, or who wasn't there, knows at what point he became involved on scene. He could have been elsewhere in the building and only responded after one of the released individuals notified him and the shooting began. I haven't seen any reports that he was present before this all began, and I find it dificult that a retired LEO would stand by while a gunman pointed a pistol at these people and then fired several shots.
    I will have to go back and rewatch the video. I thought he was identified as entering the room well before any shots were fired and after the gun was presented. If I am wrong, this would change my assessment.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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  10. #69
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I will have to go back and rewatch the video. I thought he was identified as entering the room well before any shots were fired and after the gun was presented.
    He was....And he even walks in asking the BG if that is a real gun among some other general WTHery?!.
    I do not agree with him as being hailed a "hero".

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  11. #70
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    I've been to plenty of board meetings in my days, many of them filled with nuts and newsmen...but no guns.
    We did have a superintendent killed in MI (years back) by an angry teacher who simply walked into his office, shot him dead, set the gun on his desk, I believe...and then walked to a classroom to sit and wait for the cops to show up. He's now serving life in prison.

    This may have been it... http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/17/us...shootings.html

    Yes there are lots of 'nut cases' out there. I still fail to see how taking guns away from victims makes them safer.
    Perhaps after a few more shootings, or even something more serious (Russian school episode), people will begin to realize that guns in the right hands can prevent this kind of garbage.OMOYMV

    Glad that only the perp is dead.
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  12. #71
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    Jang,
    I agree somewhat. While he may have been initially somewhat inept, he did remain and take the necessary action to resolve, at least to some extent, the situation. What I question is the fact that the perp shot himself to completely end the situation. If he could still shoot himself, he could still shoot someone else. To me that indicates that the situation was not handled to conclusion by the guard.

    IIRC, this was the guards first shooting, in spite of having been a cop and he was quite shook up at the conclusion of the incident.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Guantes...On every point you state, which I myself stated to start (last night).
    Which confuses me as to why you say you agree somewhat.

    The 'security' person did not neutralize the threat. The threat neutralized himself.
    The 'security' person _eventually_ shot the threat AFTER the threat meandered and postured for two minutes and then decided to get it on by taking shots toward, but clearly not at, people.
    The 'Security' person had an inordinate amount of time once he was in the room (he's clearly heard off screen questioning the situation and man directly) to neutralize the threat...But rather instead he choose to wait and let this crazy man banter dialog go forth as the male board members begin attempting to make deals with him toward both their own lives as well as that of the threat himself.

    I have no doubt at all this was his first shooting.
    The vast majority of police go an entire career and never draw their gun for combat use, contrary to popular assumption/perception.
    As well anyone who is a connected human being will have feelings about taking the life of another human being, be they a cop or whatever. This is quite normal and expected.

    But still at the end of the day; The 'security' person did little in being influential toward stopping this threat.
    Further his delay was unacceptable. I suspect he was awaiting backup as per either school protocol and/or his own training as from where ever he retired from.
    Only by sheer luck and will of the threat were none of the victims actually harmed, physically. They will have mental and emotional scars though for some time to come. This too is humans being normal.

    If I were one among these men and I saw 'security' doing effectively nothing; I'd very likely advise in a sharp tone that 'security' wake the heck up and _take the shot_!
    For the vast majority of this events two minutes the gunman didn't have the gun above his waist nor the bore pointed in any direction but at the floor.
    That right there is opportunity...To be stopped, by another with an aimed gun.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Just because a person is a police or once was, to me means little to nothing.
    It's about the individual...Not their career choice.
    Same as folk will say I or he/she was in the military sooo...And to that I say so what.
    Having been a police or military no more means said individual is well trained if even moderately trained than any other person of the civilian population. Ask most any instructor/trainer and they will in private confidence state same.

    As well to the end with military in specific there are only so many thousand spec-ops actual.
    The rest of the military includes cooks, logisticians, transport drivers, mechanics, nurses, doctors, and you name it type persons who aside from basic pretty much don't see and won't see actual combat of any sort...Even in many cases with wars of the past those who were infantry.
    It's about the experience and capabilities of the individual.

    I'd bet my house that if the purse lady Ginger had been given a gun, she would have acted in a real way to stop this threat sooner as opposed to waiting form him to shoot _first_ and by that then respond later.
    She's no cop nor a spec-ops type either; But she's got fire, balls and as demonstrated will too.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    The reason for the "agree somewhat" was that there was some resolve to stay, security guard or not. In addition he did eventually take some action toward resolving the problem whether totally effectual or not. And finally, as he is a retired cop just trying to make some extra money to supplement his retirement and probably thought this was one of the safest prospects around, I have some sympathy for him. Not truly substantial reasons, but my feelings none the less.

    Hard line, he was slow, ineffectual and apparently not committed to the task in front of him.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Shocking Heroism: Fla. School Board Member Attacks Gunman With Purse

    As reported by ABCNews.com:

    Shocking Heroism: Fla. School Board Member Attacks Gunman With Purse
    How Fear Can Inspire Life-Risking Feats of Bravery

    By COURTNEY HUTCHISON, ABC News Medical Unit
    Dec. 15, 2010

    Some would call it crazy, others would say it's stupid, but there's no question that Ginger Littleton's attempt to hinder a gunman's attack on her co-workers by hitting him her purse was downright brave.

    When Clay Duke, a 56-year-old resident of Panama City, Fla., pulled a gun at a school board meeting Tuesday afternoon, he ordered Littleton and a few other women to leave the room. But she didn't feel she could leave her fellow board members at Duke's mercy: A surveillance video shows her sneaking back into the room and attempting to knock the gun out of Duke's hand with a swat of her purse.

    "I had a choice. Leaving and feeling that something bad was about to happen, and living with myself if something did, and I turned back ... and they were all sitting there lined up like ... sitting ducks. I could either walk away thinking something bad was going to happen and try to live with myself or I could try to do something to divert and delay. My bag was what I had," Littleton told ABC News' George Stephanopoulos.

    Littleton's didn't succeed in her attempt, and Duke brushed her off and told her to leave again, pointing his gun at her but thankfully not shooting.

    Her actions may seem irrational -- pitting a leather purse against a man with a gun -- but her willingness to risk her life in those crucial moments may have something to do with how the body and mind respond to fear.

    "We have this stereotypical notion of people freezing up and running away when in mortal danger, but often you get people describing a real sense of calm. In psychology it's called dissociation -- you feel like you are watching a movie of yourself," said Jeff Wise, science writer and author of "Extreme Fear: The Science of Your Mind in Danger."

    "Often you don't feel fear, you just perceive what needs to be done and do it. Not to denigrate the courage this woman displayed. This was certainly a heroic thing," he said...

    The full story can be found at; http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoo...ry?id=12403574

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Much of that sounds like what was suggested by various posters earlier in this thread.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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