Gunman dead after opening fire at Florida school meeting (MERGED)

This is a discussion on Gunman dead after opening fire at Florida school meeting (MERGED) within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I'm of the opinion based on the video I saw that when Ginger hit him with the bag he was distracted long enough, and it ...

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Thread: Gunman dead after opening fire at Florida school meeting (MERGED)

  1. #76
    ntg
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    I'm of the opinion based on the video I saw that when Ginger hit him with the bag he was distracted long enough, and it appears the weapon wasn't pointing in a harmful direction as she hit him, hat those sheep board members should have pounced on him. They had that window of distraction/opportunity should have they could have capitalized on. If I saw this lady put her life on the line for me I'd jump in to help her keep her life even if it was a stupid thing to do IMO! It's easy to 'armchair quarterback' this, however. I'm not sure how I would have handled it if it was me. You never know until you're there I presume.
    M&P Shield9; RIA 1911 Tactical 9mm;...many long guns

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Unbelievable. I can't figure out why the people remaining in the room were being argumentative with the guy. If you don't have a means of defense, try to keep the guy calm until police arrive, don't aggitate him even more. The lady trying to smack his hand with the purse was increadibly brave...but equally stupid. These kinds of events are becoming too frequent.

    These folks are so fortunate that he was either a terrible shot or really didn't want to hit them. Most of these situations don't end with no one else getting hurt.
    I was thinking the samething, ounce He said "I think you came here to kill and have someone kill you" and it was on after that, good thing He was just a whack job and wasn't trained or prepaired with more rounds. That was one scary video to watch, those guys will need some sleep aids for a while. Great ending
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. -- Thomas Jefferson

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    The reason for the "agree somewhat" was that there was some resolve to stay, security guard or not. In addition he did eventually take some action toward resolving the problem whether totally effectual or not. And finally, as he is a retired cop just trying to make some extra money to supplement his retirement and probably thought this was one of the safest prospects around, I have some sympathy for him. Not truly substantial reasons, but my feelings none the less.

    Hard line, he was slow, ineffectual and apparently not committed to the task in front of him.
    Ahh...okay I now understand where you were going/meaning.
    To that I again agree with you as well on all points.

    IMHO this situation and very much first person video presents for instructors and trainers a very good and compelling lesson toward the dynamics of dealing with an active threat, and how non-threats (victims) under stress may and do respond:
    * Leavers/exit NOW to heck with what all else is going on and left behind
    * Stayers/deer in headlight types who freeze in place
    * Lets talk it out rationalizing negotiators (The one who self identified himself as the person of responsibility was walking dangerously close to the line of condescension!)
    * And Kamikaze purse swingers too.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rson63 View Post
    I was thinking the samething, ounce He said "I think you came here to kill and have someone kill you" and it was on after that, good thing He was just a whack job and wasn't trained or prepaired with more rounds. That was one scary video to watch, those guys will need some sleep aids for a while. Great ending
    I would reject much of this. According to the news in addition to the mag in the weapon he had an additional full mag and additional rounds on him. Watching the video(s) it was clear to me that he intentionally shifted his aim to the right when he first shot so as to avoid hitting the person he was pointed at. He did not shoot the woman after her action against him. In spite of the heroics of the woman and the belated intervention of the security guard, the primary thing that resulted in the lack of deaths was the perp himself.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #80
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    I'm not going to criticize or name call anybody (except the bad guy) that was there. Two reasons.
    1. I wasn't there to see the room or what took place off camera.
    2. Everybody went home.

  7. #81
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    ^^ Fair enough, but I think that many of us are using this scenario as a sort of real life case study. We don't get all too many that are "documented" in this sort of detail, and so, it is quite useful for us.

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    ...The primary thing that resulted in the lack of deaths was the perp himself.
    Quoted for emphasis, as related to stone cold hard facts.

    The people in that room are alive today to speak on it simply because the threat did not himself _CHOOSE_ to kill them.
    Nothing else and nobody else, including the retired po-po so called security person, had any actual say in this matter.
    Which should lead folks to think to themself; Next time they are at fill in the blank public access location that is an NPE zone with some dude(s) wearing 'SECURITY' shorts and maybe (!) even carrying a gun...Who exactly is going to look out for your own best interests; As well as when, how,to what degree of action & timing...And how well trained are these people AND what tools if any are they planning to deploy should the unimaginable occur.

    This incident and specific video is a a very good demonstrator of why I myself choose to carry as when exiting my home/property.
    Because I can't, don't and won't assume that so n' so or such n' such _anybody_ will act rather than try to negotiate my life or even allow me to take rounds down range...Before then secondarily after the fact choosing to _react_.

    Imagine for a moment being that gentleman who was wearing the red blazer, maybe 10' from the muzzle of that barrel...Looking at fire and the eyes of a crazy man.
    Wouldn't you or anyone rational who loves themself if not loves their family want to have some means of real and viable defense in hand and at mind (training!).
    I damn sure would.

    Today around noon I'd armed up to go buy bagels at a Dunkin Donuts that is a half mile from my house.
    My 4 yr. old son asked me why am I putting on my gun and pepper spray (along with spare magazine on my off side) to go to the store.
    No joke I looked him dead in the face and said; "Because I love you and I'd like to just run out and come right back home."
    Then I smiled, and he smiled back at me.

    I may go down but it won't be for having nothing but a satchel to toss/swing at a threat. I just pray I never get the test as these people, and 'security' did.
    This is serious business, and these zombie people out there like this dude...They don't care about me, you, us nor our familys who love us. : |

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #83
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    Just remember that all of the points mentioned here regarding his possible intent, shifting his aim, intentionally not hitting people, not planning on killing any innocent has been gleaned by close examination of the video.

    It's likely none of that would be perceived by people present during the "heat of the moment" as it was actually playing out. For all they knew at the time, he was there to kill everyone.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #84
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    Agreed Bark'n...Very much.

    All this other 'findings' stuff isn't discovered until after the dust and gun smoke settles.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #85
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    One of my local news stations aired a video of the incident different than the one posted in the thread I initially responded to before the merger, including all shots but the final shot that the BG directed at himself. 1 shot definitely in the direction of the board members. 1 shot to the innocent floor (ND) the third & 4th shots were from the security guard, but I am not sure where he was at (back of the meeting room, or behind the board members. The next 2 shots from the BG were a double tap to off screen behind the board members desk, and all final BG shots were towards the back of the room (180*) while laying down (he collapsed). Two additional shots hit the ceiling above the desk just past the podium presumably from the security guard or a third shooter (you can see debris falling). Of course, none of the local stations have the same video posted (edited). NBC & ABC news have some of it.

    Horrible incident. It amazes me that the sheep were still sitting behind the desk when SWAT made it into the room after it was all over, let alone not diving for the floor or running after the first shot. Just sitting waiting to be next. Clearly survival instinct has been bred out of them. Is this a prerequisite for being and elected official?

    I'm afraid to read the public comments on the news websites. Don't think I can stomach the anti rantings and demand for even more gun restriction and security.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post

    Horrible incident. It amazes me that the sheep were still sitting behind the desk when SWAT made it into the room after it was all over, let alone not diving for the floor or running after the first shot. Just sitting waiting to be next. Clearly survival instinct has been bred out of them.
    That amazed me too. The board members took no action when the lady tried to disarm the gunman with her purse. They didn't budge at all to try and help. When the gunman started shooting most sat there waiting to be shot.

    This reminds me of an article I read about a plane crash on a runway. A survivor looked back as he was leaving the burning plane and saw most of the passengers were still in their seats - looking around as if waiting for...he didn't know what for.

    Some people don't have a survivor instinct.
    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. psalm22:11

  13. #87
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  14. #88
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    This is another real-life example of how in-effective a handgun can be in neutralizing a threat. I can assume the security officer was carrying a common defensive caliber, (9mm, .40, etc.) in a high capacity handgun, (based on the number of shots he fired). It was probably loaded with the most modern hollow point defensive rounds available. His first shot hit the gunman which seemed to stun him, but did not slow him down. It took several more shots to put him on the ground, but still did not immediately stop the threat. This just goes to show you that shots have to hit vital organs to stop a threat, and this was a big guy making that more difficult. While on the ground the gunman was still able to fire more shots including the one to his head that eventually ended his life.
    Proud NRA member

  15. #89
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    To my eye it looked as though the off-screen security person only fired two shots.
    The first missed and hit the floor somewhere behind the threat...To which he turned a half step then twisted his torso further and looked to see where did that come from.
    He then twisted his torso back around facing forward at the elevated desk area where the board had been sitting and fired two more shots, to then bend over to his right double up and fall to the floor. It seemed to my eye that the security person (only shooter) was to his four of five position.

    I haven't re-watched the videos since (both CNN version and local affiliate news at a different directly broadside angle) yesterday but over a 72. hr period I've watched that video a number of times studying it.
    I might be off (?).

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #90
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    UPDATE!!!

    Roughly :30m ago at another gunfu forum where I'm a moderator the following _FULL_ length & content video was posted.

    Florida School Board Shooting Video - Panama City Shooting - Clay Duke - Full WMBB Video.flv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5Rmr-X7B3c

    Holy hell the total time was not two minutes...It's actually SIX MINUTES AND TEN SECONDS!!!

    Umm...Where was 'SECURITY' and what the heck was he/they doing and thinking in this time?!
    As well where was the _real_ police response?!

    These people talked to this fool for SIX MINUTES before he'd had enough and was like to heck with all this noise, time to bust some caps.
    The actual shooting part was done start to finish inside of just nine (9) seconds.

    Now it's even more ridiculous than before when we thought the elapsed time was just two minutes.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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