Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit - Page 3

Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit

This is a discussion on Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by alachner If he had his trigger finger outside of the trigger...there would've been no accident. That's just like a Glock pistol, the ...

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Thread: Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alachner View Post
    If he had his trigger finger outside of the trigger...there would've been no accident. That's just like a Glock pistol, the safety is your finger and your trigger finger discipline. Besides, most law enforcement officers have a flashlight in their weapon and one on their belt so I don't see how one would have to use a gun like a flashlight. This accident is 100% human error and not due to the Surefire design. We would already have lots of accidents with Crimson Trace Laser Grips and such that use pressure pads.

    Who pulled the trigger? Surefire or the LEO? Simple as that.
    If you mean that you don't see why he used his pistol as a flashlight I would reply that he used it that way because its handy. If you really meant you didn't see HOW he used it for a flashlight then thats simple too. He points the pistol and turns the light on.

    Michael


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Devils Advocate:

    Lets say that the human interface design of this _non-standard OPTIONAL accessory_ is flawed as implied by those in this thread, and the officer.
    Then well is it not fair to say that it's on the individual user/operator (the officer in this case) to evaluate this products human interface method as PRIOR to deploying it on the job toward fielding and real time combat use?
    Considering to do so is very much the norm for every and any other product that a LEO makes use of and might deploy in the field (see the NTOA as an example).

    If it is fair to say this then AND the officer as he claims knew the human interface was poor; How exactly is this not the individual officers issue and at that active fault?
    If it is not fair to say this; How exactly then is this the fault of SureFire when it is on the individual user/operator to actively choose to purchase and install this again established as fact _non-standard OPTIONAL accessory_ for specific use in the field? It's not like the product comes with this unit installed as it's base design.

    - Janq
    Those are good points. If I was sitting on a jury, I would have a hard time finding SF guilty of anything. However, I would have no problem recommending that the product be removed from the market. And it should be removed from the market, immediately, IMHO.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I got a big ?Since the Officer accidently shot and killed the Perp,Isn't he going to be charged with Involuntary manslaughter?I realise it may have been a mistake,but his negligence caused the death of another
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    INMHO there is no reason to have a pistol mounted light for anybody. Its fine on a long gun and shotty due to the fact it requires two hands to operate the firearm so carryin a flashlight isn't possible and the light is usually turned on with the support hand. Pointing a gun at someone to light them up when you don't know if you need to shoot or not goes against the four simple rules of gun safety. DO NOT POINT A FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T INTEND TO DESTROY!

    The pistol mounted light is very appealling and allows to have two tools in one package I considered one for about two seconds until I thought of a family member coming home late and me having to point a gun at them to id them. Dismissed the idea of a pistol mounted light right there.

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Those are good points. If I was sitting on a jury, I would have a hard time finding SF guilty of anything. However, I would have no problem recommending that the product be removed from the market. And it should be removed from the market, immediately, IMHO.
    In that case you are suggesting that all Surefire, Streamlight, Insight and proprietary handgun mounted flashlights as well as Viridium, Crimson Trace, Surefire, Streamlight and Insight laser systems be removed from the market because a law enforcement officer didn't pull out his finger off the trigger to deploy a gun mounted flashlight. This happened due to the violation of rule # 2 of the NRA's Gun Safety Rules when handling a firearm: "ALWAYS Keep your finger off the trigger at all times until ready to shoot." This is not caused by a handgun malfunction or due to a poor design of the gun mounted flashlight so I don't see why the manufacturer or the product is to be blamed here.

    That's like saying that since a Glock 19 has no safety, I accidentally discharged a round it, killed someone by accident and thus all pistols without a safety should be pulled of from the market. It just doesn't make sense. If you follow all the established and well known Gun Safety rules, there would be no accidents.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyColby View Post
    The pistol mounted light is very appealling and allows to have two tools in one package I considered one for about two seconds until I thought of a family member coming home late and me having to point a gun at them to id them. Dismissed the idea of a pistol mounted light right there.
    That is a very good point! One can manipulate a flashlight with the off hand and the pistol with the strong hand so you don't have to point the pistol to ID a family member in the dark. Nonetheless, if you had a shotgun in your hands with a mounted flashlight you would have to point the shotgun to ID your family member so you are back were you started.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

  7. #37
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    I don't think there is an inherent risk with WMLs, I do however think someone who chooses to own and use one needs to be VERY careful with its use, and practice and train with it the same way you should your gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyColby
    INMHO there is no reason to have a pistol mounted light for anybody.
    IMHO, they are made (almost) exclusively for LEOs. WMLs are a great tool for us, but you're right in a way. If I need to illuminate you, and there is no need to have my gun on you, then I will use my flashlight. If I need to have my gun on you and illuminate you, then the WML IS the best tool for the job.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Thomas Jefferson

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed with SML.

    Personally I think these things have a market niche specific to LEOs.
    Joe Homeowner civilians specifically running handguns, in general no.

    Further as to long guns it is very much possible to run a semi-auto carbine or rifle one handed using a weak hand held light source.
    Same for a shotgun as well.
    BUT (!)....To do so requires specific method and with that training that is non-standard from the common hold of the gun...Which for some civilians will not be possible due to their own individual conditions and infirmities.
    The methods and instruction though is normative and available. People just have to seek it out to learn...And they don't, never mind that this is and involves advanced skill level manipulations.

    Having a firearm mounted illuminator clearly is most convenient for the handler/user.
    But in kind it also presents clear and present functional use dangers that thus _MANDATE_ that handler/user strictly follow without fail the second basic safety rule of firearms ('Finger OFF the trigger until _immediately_ ready! to fire) while in same actively breaking the first rule which is; Do not point a firearm at any thing or being that you do not intend to destroy.

    Persons including professionally trained professional gun carriers, such as LEOs, have a moral and professional obligation to act to the highest standard when it comes to deployment and use of lethal force tools.
    In this case the professional very simply did not act as so and the result was in turn predictably disastrous.

    There is a saying among the gunfu world; Do not modify the user to fit the gun...Modify the gun to fit the user.
    Well this applies to gun accessories too.
    Had the user rather than attempting to adapt himself to the product (by way of this activator accessory part) instead simply selected a different product altogether and/or a different means of deploying light (weak hand hold) then there would have been no issue. That is the catalyst, not SureFire offering this accessory option, and by that the LEO was both criminally negligent toward a homicide and is civilly liable toward wrongful death.

    Don't take this as being anti-cop nor as being pro- SureFire or even pro-poor product design.
    At the end of the day SureFire did not press the trigger nor did they force this individual to select the primary product (weapon mounted light) or the accessory that he attached to it.
    This is about individual and personal responsibility.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alachner View Post
    In that case you are suggesting that all Surefire, Streamlight, Insight and proprietary handgun mounted flashlights as well as Viridium, Crimson Trace, Surefire, Streamlight and Insight laser systems be removed from the market because a law enforcement officer didn't pull out his finger off the trigger to deploy a gun mounted flashlight. This happened due to the violation of rule # 2 of the NRA's Gun Safety Rules when handling a firearm: "ALWAYS Keep your finger off the trigger at all times until ready to shoot." This is not caused by a handgun malfunction or due to a poor design of the gun mounted flashlight so I don't see why the manufacturer or the product is to be blamed here.

    That's like saying that since a Glock 19 has no safety, I accidentally discharged a round it, killed someone by accident and thus all pistols without a safety should be pulled of from the market. It just doesn't make sense. If you follow all the established and well known Gun Safety rules, there would be no accidents.

    WML's, in general, I have no problem with. It's this specific SF activation device (the DG Grip Switch Assembly for X-Series WeaponLights) that basically has a trigger below a trigger. It's way too easy to mix up which finger is doing what, as witnessed by the Plano incident.

    -
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    The people who are blaming the light switch are the same as people who blame guns for killing people.


    It may look like a trigger but it is nowhere near the same.

    Does the H&K P7 cause people to have NDs too?
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agree dsee.

    As well the 'Squeeze Cocker' in it's day with LEOs was pretty controversial also blamed for several so called unintended shootings...By people ignoring rule # 2 of firearm handling & safety.
    A fine gun that some less than basically skilledpersons wound up finding to be beyond their individual skillset...Akin to those running Glock type 'safety' in the trigger pistols.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Grip pressure activated pressure pad. Had the trigger finger been on the side of the frame where it should have been this would not have happened. Operator error. Sorry for both parties involved.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    After trying various methods of manipulating the weapon mounted light I concluded that the safest way to do so, for me, is to use my support hand thumb to activate the light while keeping the tip of my trigger finger pressed in to the frame.

    The pressing of the trigger finger reduces the chance of a sympathetic action, and causing a negligent discharge. The trigger finger has one job, and only one job. That is to manipulate the trigger when I desire to send a bullet downrange.

    Biker
    That is exactly the method we were trained for in using our Insight Technologies M3 Illuminator which was issued for the Glocks on our tactical team. I've had no issues or confusion when activating the light with the support hand thumb technique. We also trained extensively with them and it is now part of my muscle memory.

    For right handed shooters using the thumb of their off hand, press down on spring loaded toggle for momentary on or flip toggle up for constant on. (For left handed shooters using their right thumb to activate it's press up for momentary on and flip toggle down for constant on)

    I don't think I would be comfortable with that accessory, whether it is an aftermarket or OEM accessory unless I have (A) evaluated it and (B) trained with it to the point it becomes part of my muscle memory.

    I still use a hand held tactical light such as my Fenix LD20 or my Surefire 6P for general illumination and searching though.

    In this incident I believe it's a training issue with the officer, although I have not performed any scientific testing on the device to see if there is any inherent problems with it.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsee11789 View Post
    The people who are blaming the light switch are the same as people who blame guns for killing people........
    NO! Absolutely not true. And besides, I don't think anyone here is placing the entire blame on the switch. There was OBVIOUSLY some operator error, possibly due to a wide variety of causes.

    But the switch is of questionable design and just invites tragedy IMHO. It's too easy to twitch the wrong finger, especially in a high stress situation.

    But I would ask this one simple question from all those who think this switch is 'acceptable' - would you want your wife or child lit up by a nervous LEO with this type of light setup on his handgun?

    -
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Chevy,

    Twitching the wrong finger is directly indicative of operator failure as toward basic firearm training.
    The index/trigger finger should be off the trigger and 'indexed' along the side of the gun until prepared with cause to actually discharge the gun.

    Twitching of fingers should not at all be an issue, if the operator were handling the gun as trained properly to do so...With or without this accessory to the light installed or even any light installed to the gun at all.
    Ride the trigger while pointing it toward things and beings you do not intend to destroy...And well events like this they will and do happen.
    Light or no light, light switch paddle or no light switch paddle.

    I would not want anyone I know to be lit up by a nervous LEO with their _finger on the trigger_.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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