Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit - Page 4

Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit

This is a discussion on Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Janq, I agree with you. Training is key. But that particular switch design leaves too much room for operator error. Of course, this is just ...

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Thread: Flashlight on Plano cop's gun likely to figure in lawsuit

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Janq,

    I agree with you. Training is key. But that particular switch design leaves too much room for operator error. Of course, this is just MHO (based on 45 years of shooting causally and competitively - rifle, shotgun and handgun).

    I wonder how many more "operator failures" are out there, using this type of light setup??? My guess is - more than just this one Plano incident...........

    Here's an interesting experiment - hold out your right hand and twitch your middle finger closed. It's virtually impossible to do without some sympathetic action to the trigger finger.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I still say using a firearm as a flashlight is a bad idea. But, it was the officer that did it not the light manufacture. The light preformed exactly as it was designed. The officer did not use it correctly. I would have to place all blame on the person using the firearm as a flashlight and none on the company that made the light.

    Trouble is that there is no money in suing the officer. They will go after the manufacture of the light because they have money not because they did anything wrong. What this officer did with the light was no different than a person who kills someone when speeding in his car. In both cases the product was misused. Why is it ok to go after one company and not the other?

    Michael

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Here's an interesting experiment - hold out your right hand and twitch your middle finger closed. It's virtually impossible to do without some sympathetic action to the trigger finger
    With the trigger finger properly indexed as Janq mentioned......this is a non-issue. No matter how much sympathetic motion you get from this action, you still won't pull the trigger.
    Last edited by sigmanluke; December 21st, 2010 at 04:09 PM. Reason: add emphasis
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Here's an interesting experiment - hold out your right hand and twitch your middle finger closed. It's virtually impossible to do without some sympathetic action to the trigger finger.
    Agreed...And I already knew/know this as an item of fact.
    Most all of us as shooters, never mind instructors, do.
    Same effect often results in fine degree shooting errors.

    But...!

    With that same index finger _indexed_ (finger straight) as it is should being along the side of the frame not on the trigger at all then yeah that small bit of sympathetic movement is a non-item altogether as touching the frame of a gun does not cause triggers to pull and hammers/strikers to drop.

    Further even if he, or anyone, did have their finger on the trigger as a sympathetic reaction against effort to close the lower three fingers of the hand...The resulting sympathetic reaction of the index finger alone is NOT at the order of 6+ lbs. of pressure, being enough to cause a DA or striker fired gun to fire.
    As I'd noted early in it's not like he was running a SA gun (1911 or revolver with hammer back) with a competition type 2lb. trigger. This is a LEO with an issue combat/duty type gun & trigger setup.

    Sorry but slice & dice this all one wants and at the end of the day it does and will always come back to operator negligence.
    By specific way of the LEO not having obeyed rule # 2 of basic everywhere every purpose every application firearm handling and _safety_.
    Even if he had not been trying to activate the 'WML' or even had no WML at all; He still had his FINGER ON THE TRIGGER which is directly what caused the gun to fire...And shoot a man who was not intended nor appropriate to be shot.

    A person can have been holding, handling and pulling triggers for one hundred years.
    The rules remain the same for everyone regardless of skill level, age, years spent shooting and amount of ammo fired, gun type...And career choice or specific application & situation.

    Surefire's optional accessory item _does not_ require touching of the trigger to remotely activate the weapon mounted light.

    This is very simple, black & white. Everybody learned this as a new/novice shooter but sadly many forget or think themselves to be above it, by so called 'experience'.
    Do NOT place your finger on the trigger if you do not intend in the immediate to shoot someone or something. Period.

    - Janq

    "ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot...Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger." - Gun Safety Rule #2, NRA
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Very simple to me.
    Did the equipment malfunction? NO
    The equipment is not at fault.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    I agree with you guys about the ND being operator error.

    But I will wager that the light switch in question will not be available from SF for much longer......

    Peace

    -
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    To that I agree SS.

    In fact if I were myself a VP at SureFire in charge of product development, marketing and/or sales I too would likely lobby for a temporary stock reduction on this item until the stink of this event blows over...Or even cancellation of the SKU toward product review and/or redevelopment.
    But also one must take into account how many units have been sold and are in the end user pool that have had zero instances of _operator_ issue.

    This is the first I've ever heard of as much.
    One instance of operator negligence generally is not enough reason to cancel a product muchless regard it as being faulty.
    Though again for sake of market perception view for an artificial mfr. induced drying of the supply line short term to let this become a forgotten issue event.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    I agree with you guys about the ND being operator error.

    But I will wager that the light switch in question will not be available from SF for much longer......

    Peace

    -
    I don't think you realize how little pressure is required to activate the light.

    In order for the reflex reaction of the middle finger to cause the ND. The officer would have had to have a good amount of pressure on the trigger already. Practically to the breaking point.
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    Sympathetic reflex maybe? He may have been squeezing his middle finger, but with all the adrenaline, all his other fingers squeezed too, firing the gun. Not a good design. My light can only be done with a straight trigger finger or my non firing hand's thumb. I like it that way.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  10. #55
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    I would N-E-V-E-R mount a light on a weapon...................EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 old 0311 View Post
    I would N-E-V-E-R mount a light on a weapon...................EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Why?
    It's not that I think you SHOULD, I am just curious as to your reasoning.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 old 0311 View Post
    I would N-E-V-E-R mount a light on a weapon...................EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    AS long as people understand that a weapon light is not a flashlight, its OK. Unfortunately, most people never figure that out. They just want to hang crap off their gun with very little thought about how to best use that equipment.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    Sixto is spot on and thats the reason I don't like WML. Its not a flashlight and in a stressful situation trying to turn the thing on can be deadly as the cause for this thread. They are a tool and have a purpose but are not for me. I don't blame what happened on the light it was user error that should have never happened.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    AS long as people understand that a weapon light is not a flashlight, its OK. Unfortunately, most people never figure that out. They just want to hang crap off their gun with very little thought about how to best use that equipment.
    Exactly, when was the last time you saw a LEO (with a WML) that did not carry a flashlight? I know I've never seen it.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  15. #60
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    Exactly, when was the last time you saw a LEO (with a WML) that did not carry a flashlight? I know I've never seen it.
    Actaully our State police all carry their WML mounted on thier issue 4566s and I have not seen one with a separate flashlight on their person. I think any agency who allows or requires LEO to carry a WML, they should also require and/or provide a handheld flashlight for duty use. Our local SD issues Surefire 6P to their deputies which they carry mounted on their duty rig. The K9 officers are issued WML and special holsters, but also carry their separate lights on their belt.
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