"...shooting was not justified.....stripped of his gun and badge." - Page 2

"...shooting was not justified.....stripped of his gun and badge."

This is a discussion on "...shooting was not justified.....stripped of his gun and badge." within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I would like to know where the bullets landed on the carver, in his back or the front of his body....

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  1. #16
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    I would like to know where the bullets landed on the carver, in his back or the front of his body.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    You are correct, this isn't a anti-Leo issue for you. It's a vendetta or perhaps a crusade. Why do you insist on railing on a incident relying on nothing more than a local tv news report? You nor I have any FACTS do we? I don't know about you but I lack the ability to see off camera.
    I rely on the news report because it reported what the department decided; that the shooting wasn't justified. That is a huge step which will harm the officer's legal defense. And it is a public safety issue. There are too many incidents like this and these could very well happen to any one of us who carries a knife on our belt for SD. It could even happen to an off duty LEO. Just turn to see what's going on and you can be accused, after the fact, of having taken an aggressive posture.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by javahawk View Post
    Doesn't look justified to me. This scares the crap outta me.
    Me too. Guy is walking along minding his own business, not causing anybody any trouble, not acting drunk, not doing anything but walking in a straight line across the street carving on a piece of wood. Officer gets out, yells at him to put the knife down, and kills him when he makes a normal response to somone yelling at him (turns to see who it is). The officer was behind the victim, didn't identify himself as a policeman, victim turns to see who is calling which is a perfectly normal response, and gets killed for it.

    I don't see why the officer got out of his car and followed him in the first place. Based on what I saw, the officer had no cause to accost the guy, never mind kill him. Yelling at the guy from behind with out identifying yourself, and then killing him when he turns to see who it is, is wanton killing. Period. No justification. I think the board got it right.

    Fitch

  4. #19
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    The more I watch this video the more upset I get. Esp when she said "he did nothing wrong!"

    Wow. Horrible all around.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Guy is walking along minding his own business, not causing anybody any trouble, not acting drunk, not doing anything but walking in a straight line across the street carving on a piece of wood. Officer gets out, yells at him to put the knife down, and kills him when he makes a normal response to somone yelling at him (turns to see who it is).
    You know this how?
    The officer was behind the victim, didn't identify himself as a policeman, victim turns to see who is calling which is a perfectly normal response, and gets killed for it.
    If this is what happened I would say its murder. But, I repeat myself. You know this how?
    I don't see why the officer got out of his car and followed him in the first place.
    Me either. Was the person breaking some law?
    Based on what I saw, the officer had no cause to accost the guy, never mind kill him. Yelling at the guy from behind with out identifying yourself, and then killing him when he turns to see who it is, is wanton killing. Period. No justification. I think the board got it right.
    I think you may be right on this point. From what I have gathered so far this is a scary encounter with police.
    No need to state opinions as fact though.

    Michael

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch View Post
    Me too. Guy is walking along minding his own business, not causing anybody any trouble, not acting drunk, not doing anything but walking in a straight line across the street carving on a piece of wood. Officer gets out, yells at him to put the knife down, and kills him when he makes a normal response to somone yelling at him (turns to see who it is). The officer was behind the victim, didn't identify himself as a policeman, victim turns to see who is calling which is a perfectly normal response, and gets killed for it.

    I don't see why the officer got out of his car and followed him in the first place. Based on what I saw, the officer had no cause to accost the guy, never mind kill him. Yelling at the guy from behind with out identifying yourself, and then killing him when he turns to see who it is, is wanton killing. Period. No justification. I think the board got it right.

    Fitch
    Aside from your first sentence the rest must rely on you joining Hopyard as being clairvoyant. And by the way did we not see the last paragraph in the report?


    Williams' family also asked that the video be released at this time. They pointed out that videotapes of some of Williams previous encounters with the police have already been released and show him in a negative light.

    Wonder what "a negative light" would mean?

  7. #22
    Member Array HahnsXD's Avatar
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    The knife was closed...
    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws."-Penn Jillette

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    You know this how?

    If this is what happened I would say its murder. But, I repeat myself. You know this how?

    Me either. Was the person breaking some law?

    I think you may be right on this point. From what I have gathered so far this is a scary encounter with police.
    No need to state opinions as fact though.

    Michael
    I know this from watching the video together with what the officer and his lawyer said.

    We see the guy walk by. He doesn't look at the officer. It isn't a jump to say he isn't even aware the officer is there.

    Officer gets out of his car, follows the guy across in front of camera. Guy walking away, officer behind.

    We hear the officer yell at him to put knife down. We do not hear the officer identify himself.

    The guy turns toward the officer. How do I know this - the officer and his lawyer both said he turned toward the officer. It was this turning that the officer claims justifies the killing.

    Why does he turn? The officer is behind him, hasn't identified himself, he is being yelled at, he doesn't know who is yelling at him, or why, so he turns to see who it is. That's what I'd do, or any normal person would do.

    The officer didn't expect that? How the heck did the officer expect him to react? Accost a guy doing nothing to provoke such an act from behind, don't identify yourself, then kill him for turning to see who it is? How the heck can that be justified?

    How do I know he isn't looking, officer says, so when he says "he turned toward me". I know he didn't identify himself as an officer because I didn't hear it and I hear everything on that video including the lady saying "he didn't do anything". The facts I'm basing my conclusion on are all there in that article plus the video and his own lawer's statement. This is observation and deduction, not opinion.

    In my opinion it is really really scary they let a cop like that loose on the street.

    Fitch

  9. #24
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    I hear everything on that video including the lady saying "he didn't do anything".
    I would like to know what qualifies the lady to determine proper, or justified, actions on the part of the officer. Probably the same as most of you posting in this thread, absofreakinglutely nothing.

    I'll wait for it to come out in a more formal setting, as the court of public opinion is worth nothing.

    Biker

  10. #25
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    Exclamation Update ! Shot in the back

    http://thecitadelinformer.wordpress....4-times-video/
    ( Bad & Ugly)
    Autopsy concludes shot in the back.
    Last edited by pistola; December 20th, 2010 at 03:18 PM.
    U.S. Army Veteran

  11. #26
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    While we don't have all the facts... We do have a portion of video, and the officers commands to the subject in order to make some conclusions based on common sense.

    Of course, what we conclude is by no means what transpired or what will be concluded when facts and eye witnesses are presented at the inquest.

    However, what I saw visible in the dash cam video was a man walking alone, and looking like he was carving on a piece of wood. He did not even see the officer, although he may have caught a glimpse of the vehicle in his peripheral vision. At least enough to tell it was stopped at the traffic light and not going to be run over.

    He then proceeded off camera and presumed to continue his journey down the sidewalk. (It has later been revealed that he was deaf in one ear).

    People who are deaf in one ear do not hear in stereo and therefore can not always tell which direction sound or words are coming from. Also high ambient noise as with the busy hustle and bustle of city traffic and other noise in the area can make one's hearing even more difficult. (Also, the officer had no way of knowing the man was deaf or hard of hearing).

    The officer exited his car with his gun at his side and proceeded to yell commands at the subjects back. We clearly see the man had already moved beyond the view of the camera continuing on his way, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he probably had his back to the officer as the officer approached him issuing commands to drop the knife.

    Only 7 seconds transpired between the time the officer first issued a challenge and the shots were fired. We also see the officer hustling in front of the patrol car to "catch up" to the subject, again giving us the assumption that the guy was merely continuing on with his walk.

    If the officer feels the subject became an immediate and unavoidable threat to his safety merely because he turned around to see who was yelling at him and why, then I believe the officer was out of line. A person who is deaf or partially deaf, may indeed not been able to understand the words being spoken when their back is turned, and only hear that he was being yelled at by someone.

    If on the other hand, if the man spun around and started running towards the officer with a knife in hand, he was justified in shooting him.

    I have significant hearing loss in certain frequency ranges from 30 years of sirens blaring, working in an environment with high ambient noise and also from a snub nose revolver being discharged 4 times about 12 -18 inches away from my right ear as a woman murdered her husband while we were attempting to revive him. (long story there). When I am trying to watch television at work and several people are carrying on a conversation in the background or behind me, I can barely make out what is being said because of hearing loss in certain frequency ranges.

    I am willing to give the officer the benefit of the doubt. However, if things remain as they appear when all the evidence is laid out, I think the officer jumped the gun, so to speak. I think it's very plausible that the man was walking down the street, minding his own business engrossed in carving on a piece of wood when he noticed someone behind him yelling something at him which he did not understand and then turned around to see who was yelling at him. Of course he would still have his knife in his hand. I believe a seasoned officer would consider to issue new commands once the subject was facing him telling him to stop and drop the knife knowing the man may not have heard him when his back was to him, or not have thought he was talking to him.

    Again, we only know the officer issued several commands to the man before the shots rang out. We don't know if the man initiated an aggressive movement towards the officer once he faced him. I'm willing to give the officer the benefit of the doubt. However, if all he did was turn around to face the officer in order to see who was yelling at him, I don't consider that an aggressive movement towards the officer even if he still had the knife in his hand.

    The officer had every right to have him at gunpoint, no doubt. But we don't have all the facts yet, and that's were bystander testimony will play a key role in trying of the facts. We already know there was one woman who yelled, "he wasn't doing anything" which was clearly heard on the video. Which also lends credence to the assumption the did not charge the officer.

    Just my humble opinion. And clearly based only on the evidence of the video and audio recording and nothing else.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post

    Williams' family also asked that the video be released at this time. They pointed out that videotapes of some of Williams previous encounters with the police have already been released and show him in a negative light.

    Wonder what "a negative light" would mean?
    Thank you for pointing that out, I missed that line entirely. It could explain why the officer wanted the guy to stop.
    All I can say to argue the contrary is that I am certain the department knew about prior encounters, knew whether or not this particular officer was familiar with the dead guy, and took all of that stuff into account in making their determination that the shooting wasn't justified.

    In the garden nozzle thread someone responded to my comment that it would be nice if the dept. stepped up and stopped making excuses and took responsibility. They pointed out that this is never done because of liability reasons. Well, it was done in this instance. That tells me something. It tells me that either the dept. is stand up, or they are throwing the officer under the buss.

    The sentence you pointed too is making me reconsider my initial reaction.

    Just read post 25. I guess I'll double eat my own words. I'm back to really bad shoot.

  13. #28
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    I just read the update in post #25 and it appears he was shot in the back and was not facing the police officer. It also mentions a 3 inch knife, which in my State, is perfectly legal to posses in public.

    It doesn't look good for the officer. However, we still have not had the official results of the inquest, but I'd be getting a good lawyer if I were the officer.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #29
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    Exclamation Inquest into woodcarver's death by police fire set for January

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  15. #30
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    My issue here is not guilt or innocence. It the idea that some choose to judge based on... I don't know. Certainly not facts.

    This is a link to a previous article. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ooting02m.html

    Does it tell anything more? I don't think so, maybe just a different spin.

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