"...shooting was not justified.....stripped of his gun and badge."

This is a discussion on "...shooting was not justified.....stripped of his gun and badge." within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by mlr1m Yup. It does make things difficult. If that is what happened the officer was justified. If there was no attack though ...

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Thread: "...shooting was not justified.....stripped of his gun and badge."

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Yup. It does make things difficult. If that is what happened the officer was justified.
    If there was no attack though I would not consider it (Tueller) as an excuse to kill an innocent person.

    Michael
    That is a reasonable point of view.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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  3. #62
    Ex Member Array slave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Show me where it's "plain and easy to see"? Are cops still called "pigs"? How open minded.
    Clearly, I didn't mean "see" as in literally with the eyes. The video, the witness, the statements, and now the autopsy.

    This was murder.

    Are cops still called pigs? Some are. Some are not. Abusive police are pigs. Good officers are police officers. I have three officer freinds here in Flint, I went to high school with them, love them. Nice guys.
    This man was shot dead by a pig. I hope has fun in prison, then we can call him "Shirley".

  4. #63
    Member Array HahnsXD's Avatar
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    A perfect analogy someone on another forum I frequent used.

    So imagine you were walking home from a softball game with your baseball bat, listening to an iPod (headphones attached to an AM/FM radio were found on Williams' body), and you are deaf in one ear. You are minding your own business and not breaking any laws or threatening anyone. Officer Birk comes up from behind you commanding you to drop the bat, but you don't hear him. You finally become aware that someone is yelling something from behind you, and as you turn to see who it is and what they are saying, you are shot several times until you are dead. No problem, because you didn't "comply"?
    There will always be the cop lovers and the cop haters.

    Cops are people, good ones and bad ones.

    I really like good cops and really hate bad cops.

    This officer lost my respect the second he decided to bother this guy who was doing nothing wrong.

    I've had an equal number of good and bad encounters with LEOs. In every encounter I show respect for them until they become jerks.

    Hell, I posted about a bad LEO encounter a while ago and the thread was closed and I was labeled a "cop basher" by ignorant morons.
    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws."-Penn Jillette

  5. #64
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    This is my lost post on this incident. I can't continue trying to rationalize this situation with members who refuse to judge the facts.

    Let me ask.

    With what we KNOW right now if seated on a jury,operating under the rules of evidence and law,how could anyone convict this officer?

  6. #65
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    This is my lost post on this incident. I can't continue trying to rationalize this situation with members who refuse to judge the facts.

    Let me ask.

    With what we KNOW right now if seated on a jury,operating under the rules of evidence and law,how could anyone convict this officer?
    Officer went after the victim for no apparent reason (unless you call whittling a piece of wood with a legal knife probable cause) and drew gun immediately upon exiting vehicle when no credible threat was being presented.
    Officer never identified himself as a police officer when approaching the victim from behind.
    Officer gunned the victim down for no apparent reason within a few seconds of first yelling at the victim and shots entered victim's right side.
    Victim had a closed knife when he was gunned down (as evidenced by the picture).
    Witness yelled at officer saying "he didn't do anything wrong!"
    Officer's explanation for gunning down the victim was "he had a knife".

    Based off this and this alone... Illegal killing. Manslaughter at least.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Saw the video of the officer getting out of his car with his firearm already drawn and heading towards the victim, then out frame he shouts to the victim in a very aggressive and unprofessional manner. It did not appear to be a dispatched call, just something the officer noticed as he was sitting in his patrol car... I didn't see the actual shooting, obviously outa frame, but by all the actions made by the officer up to the shooting I'd say he lacked the mindset to be a Police officer to start off with. In a situation like that IMO, any officer happing onto a situation like that should start off with some form of deescalating tactic not go directly to deadly force. From the sound of the shots, the officer fired at least 3 rounds. Why?


    IMO the officer should lose a lot more than just his badge and gun. What kind of nuts are they putting out on the streets these days. Give the officer the benefit of doubt, WHY! WHAT THE HECK FOR! for the sake of brotherhood or something... Boy howdy, I wonder if you'd singing the same tune if the victim was your friend or family member.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    This is my lost post on this incident. I can't continue trying to rationalize this situation with members who refuse to judge the facts.

    Let me ask.

    With what we KNOW right now if seated on a jury,operating under the rules of evidence and law,how could anyone convict this officer?

    By what I saw on the dash cam and heard by way of audio, that combined with the witness at the scene who stated that the victim was not assaulting the officer. Then yes, I'd vote to convict the officer. The guy got outa his cruiser with his firearm drawn..... I could tell right away that, that stop was gonna go south real fast, and it did. Now some poor dude is dead and for what.

    I just wish we could come up with a better way to cull the trigger happy officers from the ranks sooner.

    NOt bashing law enforcement at all, but I'll bash a bad cop in a heartbeat! Just check out the evening news if you wonder if there are any....
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Justification? Man with a knife.
    Good grief. How many times does it need to be said. The knife is a problem ONLY if the knife is illegal. Only if it was illegal to walk down the street with a knife whittling. Only if it was being used in an aggressive manner--which it was not when the video starts. There was no aggression shown.*

    And what about a baton. The gun isn't the only tool in the bag. It doesn't take much to disarm by striking a wrist or elbow with a baton or even an empty hand. Maybe its my Modern Arnis background, but why shoot someone when you have options.

    As for Tueller--- all misinterpreted. It is a factual description of what can happen with an aggressive knife wielder at 21 feet. The 21 feet thing isn't justification for shooting someone simply because they are holding a knife and minding their own business.

    *Now, in possible defense of the officer, but we lack any reason for this idea except speculation: Suppose, just suppose, the dead guy was someone known to get close to robbery victims by appearing innocent and then putting the knife to them with a demand for the wallet or purse. If that were the case the officer would have maybe been justified. HOWEVER, you'd think his department would know about such, and would have taken that into consideration in reaching their determination.

    Lacking from all of this is what really set the officer off. His adrenaline was going big time when he hopped out of the car. There has to be some factor other than what was seen in the video. Either the guy just snapped (I'm thinking that is unlikely) or there is stuff between those two we don't know about. On the surface it looks like first degree murder but I really don't want to believe that. I'm still hoping a reasonable explanation is forthcoming.

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    As for Tueller---not misinterpreted. It is a factual description of what can happen with an aggressive knife wielder at 21 feet. IIRC the officer was 9-10 feet from the subject, one half the distance of Tueller. The 21 feet thing, actually half that, combined with a refusal to drop the knife, "could" be a justification for shooting someone depending on the totality of the circumstances.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #70
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    As for Tueller---not misinterpreted. It is a factual description of what can happen with an aggressive knife wielder at 21 feet. IIRC the officer was 9-10 feet from the subject, one half the distance of Tueller. The 21 feet thing, actually half that, combined with a refusal to drop the knife, "could" be a justification for shooting someone depending on the totality of the circumstances.
    Yes, certainly... for someone aggressively threatening. Perhaps not so much for someone turning around (with, evidently, a closed knife) to see who was yelling at them for what...
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Yes, certainly... for someone aggressively threatening. Perhaps not so much for someone turning around (with, evidently, a closed knife) to see who was yelling at them for what...
    True. Then we get into interpretation of "threatening", which will probably be decided by a jury. With a knife in hand, how long does it take to open it, about a quarter of a second.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #72
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    True. Then we get into interpretation of "threatening", which will probably be decided by a jury. With a knife in hand, how long does it take to open it, about a quarter of a second.
    No disagreement there. The eye witnesses to this will be critical... the one who spoke in the video seems to have felt the victim wasn't threatening.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    This is my lost post on this incident. I can't continue trying to rationalize this situation with members who refuse to judge the facts.

    Let me ask.

    With what we KNOW right now if seated on a jury,operating under the rules of evidence and law,how could anyone convict this officer?
    Easily. It is a fairly strong case actually. What is the evidence supporting a reasonable doubt? It is non-existent. It is only speculation that the dead guy somehow threatened the officer, a claim the officer himself does not make. The officer only states that the guy didn't drop the knife when commanded-- and the command was made by someone who never identified himself as an officer. Since the dead guy was shot in the side, we don't even know if he had time to see the uniform and mentally process what was going on before he was shot.

    Here is the evidence supporting guilt.

    1) Guy walked down the street in a non-aggressive manner. Not in doubt.
    2) Officer exited patrol car in an aggressive manner with gun drawn. with no obvious reason for that. Not in doubt.
    3) Officer starts shouting but never identifies himself as an officer. Not in doubt.
    4) Knife on ground closed. Not in doubt.
    5) Witness is heard to say, "he didn't do anything." Not in doubt.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    As for Tueller---not misinterpreted. It is a factual description of what can happen with an aggressive knife wielder at 21 feet. IIRC the officer was 9-10 feet from the subject, one half the distance of Tueller. The 21 feet thing, actually half that, [/B]combined with a refusal to drop the knife, "could" be a justification for shooting someone depending on the totality of the circumstances.
    I don't think we know how close or far the officer was when he fired, but he was the one closing the distance, that is clear from the video. Seriously, if you see someone with a knife waving it in a threatening manner (not that such was the case), do you close the distance?

    Unless the knife was being used to threaten a third party and an urgent situation was unfolding, there was no reason to close.

    This one stinks, and no amount of spin is going to make it look good. Because, if it could be made to look like it was really actually and factually a good shoot his department would not have taken the action against him, thus exposing the department and the city to considerable civil liability.

    P.S. An LEO I know walked up to a man armed with a rifle and using empty hand technique disarmed him. I don't know the complete set of circumstances, all he said about it was in an MA class--- "I disarmed an old boy with a rifle that way one time." I put that up as a contrast to this crazy bizz we are discussing. My acquaintance would have been justified in blowing the man away but chose to not do it. That's bravery and class. This incident is criminal.

  16. #75
    Member Array pistola's Avatar
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    Question The knife was closed

    It is my understanding that after the shooting the knife was found unopened in closed position on the ground.
    U.S. Army Veteran

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